Godsmack: "To go out on top is the way to do it"

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Over the years I’ve had the chance to interview quite a few artists from the rock and metal music world and I’ve faced many different personalities. Well, Shannon Larkin, the drummer of Godsmack, is without question one of the most authentic rock guys I’ve had the chance to talk with. Kind of a rock star without the annoying behavior and certainly not a guy to watch his words and play it safe.

With the newest Godsmack album "Lighting Up The Sky" recently released, we had the chance to talk about its making, the reasons why this is meant to be the last Godsmack studio album and why is Sully Erna mentioned as the sole songwriter of the band, opening up about songwriting & publishing rights and the hard stuff or the music business. And then we talked about the love we share for the mighty Ugly Kid Joe! Talking with Shannon left me excited me as a fan and hopefully we’ll get another chance to talk again about all the stuff we didn’t have enough time to discuss this time around. Till then enjoy what this authentic rock dude had to say…

It's a great pleasure and the privilege to have the chance to talk with you. I'll let you know later why is that, but first of all how are you and how are things in the Godsmack camp?

Everything is good. We're in the calm before the storm, as we call it, in which we've released our record and a couple singles, people seem to be receiving it well, and now we have one month to just rehearse until May 1st when we get on an airplane and start the world Tour in Denver, Co. We're super excited about it, man! It's been a long, long, long time of not touring for us. I mean, we did a short run in October in Europe for one month, but before that obviously the pandemic and everything had shut down the business and that was the longest in our career that we haven't toured. So, we're beyond excited.

The new album has been received very positively by the critics and our fans. The critics we don't care so much about, our fans we do!

Yeah, you had your newest album "Lighting Up The Sky" coming out about a month ago. It's another great addition to your discography, so congrats for it. I'd like to know what's the feedback you've gotten so far and how does it feel for you, now It's been out there for a while?

It's been out a couple weeks here and right now, like I said, it's been received very positively, very well by the critics and our fans. The critics we don't care so much about, our fans we do! And they seem to really love it. And I think they get what we tried to achieve here, which was going into it as a final record we wanted to have elements from our whole career. It's been a long run of 25 years making music, and luckily having hit songs on the records over the years, over the decades, here in America. So, what we tried to do was implement a little bit of each style. Because, you know, we made records that came four years apart, so four years is a long time, and stylistically each record has changed and evolved over the years into what we became by "When Legends Rise". Which was super different than, say, "The Oracle" or "Faceless". What we tried to do on this last one was simply incorporate the vibe from each record, from the first all the way up to "Legends", and come up with what we felt would be a set that would really satisfy all our fanbase from the early fans to the newer fans.

We like creating and writing, but going in studios and making records to us and Sully being such a perfectionist has always been like hard work

All right! now. As you said, eventually it's been a four year gap between ‘When Legends Rise" and "Lighting Up The Sky", which is the longest gap between albums for Godsmack. Of course, there's been a pandemic in between, but was this the only reason it took so long? How were things the band in the in-between of the two records?

That was exactly why it took so long. The pandemic happened and you know, we came off. It was 2019. We toured for a year and a half on "When Legends Rise", the last record, which was a successful tour and a successful record for us. We were high on it. And then we came back to America in December 2019 and realized that we had a fourth number one single happened in January/February. It was rising up and then by February it went number one. So, we had booked another 6-7 months almost to the fall of 2020 and we had all these great shows booked, like opening for Metallica and some festivals and this cool stuff, right? Well, then the pandemic struck and everything ended…

And so the fear made it look like it was the apocalypse happening. We all just went home for the whole rest of 2020 and everyone was scared to get on a plane and get together or whatever, so we just said "Alright, let's take this this year off". And we all thought that by 2021 it'd be gone and everything would be better. Well, it wasn't! So we ended up getting back together anyway in 2021. It had lightened up, but you still had to wear masks in public and all this shit. But we ended up... they flew down here to Florida and we all got together and started writing. And the writing went well. There was another unscripted break that we had to take as Sully, our singer, went through a breakup unfortunately, in his life, with the girl. So, we took a break for four months in 2021 and at the time we had written close to 10 or maybe 11 songs, you know. And when he went through that and then took the break we ended up scrapping all those songs except for three. It's unfortunate to get your heart broke, but when it happened to him, it inspired him to write all this music. "Surrender", it's obviously what it's about… You know, the lyrics and everything. Songs like "Truth", you know what I mean... If you listen to the new record, he puts his heart on his sleeve…

It was the easiest and most drama free record, believe it or not, we ever made

… But back to the story. After four months, he came back, we scrapped all but three songs and he ended up just writing what we feel is his best music and lyrics. And so the record from that point went really quick. And we wrote it and recorded it and it was the easiest and most drama free record, believe it or not, we ever made. We're a live band, we've always said it. We don't like making records anyway, it's work. We like creating and writing, but going in studios and making records to us and Sully being such a perfectionist has always been like hard work… You leave your house and everything.

This time we changed it all up and we had a much looser environment. We did it in Florida, where most of us live, three out of four of us still live here, and so everybody was closer to home and we enlisted Mudrock who engineered and co-produced the first two records. Sully has a respect for him that is visible. You can see the respect. So, when Sully, who's always the producer really in this band, when he respects the co-producer that's when things go easier. And it's gone both ways in the past. But, point in, this was the funniest, most drama free record we've ever made. We feel it's our best record. It took an extra year to get out there, but if that pandemic wouldn't happen, I guarantee you we'd have been on our four-year plan.

In this hard business that less than 1% of us even get a record deal, we rose to the top of our mountain

OK, I get it. And I guess the most obvious question you're asked these days is "why does this have to be the last Godsmack studio album?". I've read some comments Sully made recently that it this may change in the future, but right now that's the case. So, what's your thoughts about it?

Yeah, my thoughts… You know, we're all four different dudes and we're all four different individuals. And you know, Sully and I are the two guys that do the press for the band, for 20 years. And so sometimes I say things different from Sully. But, it's his band. He hand-picked all of us. He's the visionary, he's the genius. He's our genius, you know? And he's the one that brought up this being a last record. I’m 55 years old and I'm the guy in the band that started playing clubs when I was 13. I've been doing this longer than everybody in this band as far as professionally making records and all that shit. And the drummer is the most physical thing. So, when he brought the idea of that being the last record and with what we've accomplished as a band in this hard business - that less than 1% of us even get a record deal, and we rose to the top of our mountain - I was in. I've embraced it. I mean, time can only tell but… If he wants to make records later in our career, it's going to be a discussion… I'll say that…

The dream of being a rock star and all that… that's before you learn about what this business is really like

I feel like it's the absolutely right thing to do. Because I'm also a guy that likes to play live and that's what I started doing this for. You know, the dream of being a rock star and all that… that's before you learn about what this business is really like and how hard it is and how much luck is every bit as important as talent. And timing is everything. And all these things and management and booking agents and the product you're selling, you're a salesman now. And you have to tour… So you have a family and a kid? Your wife and kid want to go on vacation? You can't go! You got a tour booked! The band to me - and every band I've been in - has been first in my life. Over family, friends, everything… The band is first. And it's been that way with the four of us in Godsmack. And so, you know, I look very forward - after this two years of running this final cycle tour for the "Lighting Up The Sky" - to finally having freedom and the power of my life to do what I want for a little bit. Maybe if I do that…

You know, the elephant in the room to me is age too. I'm 55, right? That's not old maybe, but the thing is in rock'n'roll and punk and metal and all that, it's a genre that's filled with aggression, piss and vinegar. It's a young man's game to me, and I've been doing it since I was 13, so I feel like it's my final record. In three years, perhaps my feeling will be different… But in three years, I'll be rolling up on 60...

I don't even hope we make another record honestly

As far as hope and the meaning and that concept, we can hope maybe we'll make another record... I don't even hope we make another record honestly. I feel like Aerosmith did this 20 years ago. They said "final record". And look at Aerosmith. What did they do? They made hits for all those year decades, just like we had but bigger, way bigger than us. And they called it quits because they understood that "Shit, if we're doing what we love and finally getting the reward, which is being able to play and have thousands of people come and love your music, that's enough. When do we have to stop selling product and making money?". And for us and for everybody, it's a lot of pressure and it's a lot of business. And I want to be back to being a drummer again and being "what's next on my schedule? Going out and touring and playing shows". That's what my life was from the age of 13 until the age of 20 when I got signed for the first time, so I want to get back to that. I feel it's a reward and I feel like it'll be nice to be selfish for a minute and take a look back at everything we've done. You know what I mean? And not feel the pressure to top it. That's the thing, you know. And we always try to top our last record. That's what you do. And to take that away, I believe that we will embrace and enjoy and use the live shows as a reward. And then also we can quit whenever we want at that point, we don't have to like break the band up if we feel like we're too old and we don't look or aren't strong enough to represent the band, then we could say to ourselves "hey, let's not play this year". And then hopefully it will go on like that.

I just don't want to have big announcement where we broke up and then we get back together and make another record because then it's like fooling your fans. Where you say it’s your final record and then they go out and buy it cause it’s your final record, but then, three years later you’re like "oh, we're making another record!". It just seems like a cheap thing to me to do. But, I don't know…

The fans can say "Oh yeah, we want new music", but then why does half the arena empty when you play a new song? And then, five years later, that song is a classic…

I listened carefully to what you said, and I really respect the way that you present things. It may be a hard pill to swallow for us fans, because we do want to hear new music from our favorite artists, so as to keeps it fresh and exciting, but then it's totally respected what you say from your perspective. All this business stuff getting in the way, making it harder for you. I get it…

Well, plus… I mean, think of it too this way.. like if you talk about the fans being bummed out that we're not making new music or whatever... With that said, when we go on a new record tour, it's been this way ever since the beginning… Well, I won't even say us… I'll give you a great example.

I was at an AC/DC show. They had come out with "Black Ice" and it was the first record in like 6-7 years that AC/DC had come out with and so they launched this huge tour. So, my ex-wife and I go to the arena to see AC/DC sold out "Black Ice" tour and it had been, like I said, a long time. So they come on stage, right… Well, first off, the precursor is my ex and I got those giant beers that you get in the arena. These are like 20-ounce beers. And so we both drink during the opening band, which was The Sword, which is a great band. We enjoyed The Sword and we had these giant beers during their set. And then AC/DC comes on. They open up with "Hell's Bells", and then they go right into "Back In Black". And then they go right in the "Highway To Hell" and the hits just keep going on. Meanwhile, I'm looking at my ex going "I gotta pee really bad". But I wasn't leaving. And then so after "Highway To Hell", three songs in, I gotta pee. My back teeth are floating, right? So then they start playing, after "Highway to Hell", then they broke right into "Dirty Deeds". And I'm like ready to run to the bathroom, but then they started playing "Dirty Deeds". And I'm like, I'm not leaving during "Dirty Deeds". So, I'm sitting there holding it, and then the fifth song in the set was their first single from "Black Ice", "War Machine". Probably my favorite song on the whole record. It's a great song, but it's a new song. So when they start playing the new song I go OK. Then I went to pee. And we see that from the stage. Man, when we play a new song, you can see people going to get a beer or going to pee, because they know they want to get back and they want to see "I Stand Alone", they don't want to miss "Voodoo", they want to see "Bulletproof". So, you know they can say "Oh yeah, we want new music", but then why does half the arena empty when you play a new song? And then, five years later, that song is a classic or whatever. You know what I mean…

To go out on top is the way to do it

But, I feel like after you put out seven, eight records… and that's another thing… if you look at most bands… like The Beatles even only made what 6 records or what? I mean, 7-8 records I feel is a great career and a legacy perhaps that we've left. Because, after we're dead our music can go on forever. That's kind of our legacy we've left. And I feel like to go out on top is the way to do it. Like The Beatles did it or whatever… I am not saying that we’re The Beatles… I'm saying that kind of mentality of like we've left the world what we feel is a gift from us. The gift of music… And only us four can sound like the way we sound. So, whether it's sold or not, that's what we've left. So, for us to like have to break up or something, because we don't want to make more studio records is ridiculous. Because we have this whole lifetime of music that we can continue to play for fans. I do understand though being bummed out, like people were bummed out when The Beatles broke up or whatever. But the truth is in the end it's your music that you've already released that's important, because that's your legacy…

Yeah, yeah, I get it. Now, with Godsmack you've managed to establish an easily recognizable sound and character, which is the target for most bands when they start out. So, how difficult is it to keep fresh and interesting each time while maintaining this sound and this character intact?

Yeah, it's a great question, man… You know, it's because of change, you know what I mean? Like, as individuals and as in the musical climate and as a product, you have to think about what your fans will want, but… that is a good question. Say it one more time... Tell me the question again…

It's a very hard thing to do, to have a characteristic voice. Well, we got one in Sully…

How difficult is it to keep it fresh and interesting each time while maintaining your established sound and character intact?

I think the main thing is influences. Sully, Tony, Robbie and myself we all grew up with the same dream, became musicians, and so we were all influenced by a group of bands mainly. You know, Sabbath, Zeppelin, Rush, AC/DC, Pink Floyd, Metallica… When you're a young musician you're emulating what your ears hear on your instrument. That's why some musicians are jazz guys, some musicians are blues guys, some musicians are rock guys. Well, the four of us end up being rock guys. We all listen to the same music. We all kind of love the same things too. So, when we create music together, our individuality is what makes us sound like the band we are, and it's mainly the vocals.

The bands that have a distinct sound have longevity

Sully Erna has a very distinct voice. Like when you hear a song come on the radio for instance, and you hear Axl Rose start singing, you go "oh, it’s Guns N’ Roses"… And it's a very hard thing to do, to have a characteristic voice. Well, we got one in Sully. When our song comes on and you might not know it's a brand-new song, when he opens his mouth you’ll go "That’ Sully, that's Godsmack… new Godsmack, right?". And so I think that keeps a lot of the character, no matter how much we change in our tone of sound or like in our direction. Like I said earlier like the difference between "Faceless" which is a metal record pretty much and "When Legends Rise", which is a hard rock record. But they still sound like Godsmack, because that driving force is Sully and his voice. And arrangements, you'd have to say… Each band has their own specific way of arranging songs, for instance, some bands might like to drop into a third verse after the lead section and then chorus out, where we typically go right from the lead section into maybe a bridge into the chorus. You know, there's all these things that form the distinction of what makes you sound like yourself. And a lot of bands have distinct sounds and then some bands don't, and usually the bands that have a distinct sound have longevity. So I feel like we have it and I feel really lucky to have a singer that is identifiable like he is.

I'm not zero! At least throw me a bone or whatever because I'm in there and I'm helping to write these songs! Whether it's picking up a guitar or not, I feel I'm helping!

Now, if I'm not mistaken, the only song that you have writing credits on the new album is "Growing old". As usually, it's mostly Sully that takes the writing credits on your on your albums. So, first of all, what was your input in this really nice and emotional song. Then, what would you say is your main contribution to the other songs, being the drummer of the band?

All right... With songwriting, it's always a slippery slope. Because there's different opinion on what songwriting is. We've had battles that almost broke the band up about it. And I'll say this because I we're brothers and so I would say right to his face. But a song like "Soul On Fire" to me would have been a distributed credit where on the record it says Sully Erna. The reason it says Sully Erna is he wrote the riffs and the lyrics. But when the songs coming together, there's four of us - or in this case three of us - in the room: Tony, Sully and myself. That's where the band writes the song, and it sounds like Godsmack. Because I will say "what if we do a pause here and then go back to the snare drum part with the opening riff?". And so that happens, right? So, I feel I contributed to that song. Do I earn a percentage of publishing? Well, sure! But in the songwriting world all you have to do is write the actual riffs and you own the music and then write the lyrics and you own the lyrics. And they divide the pie like if you just picture a pie and half is the music, half is the lyrics and melodies. So, what we ended up doing after I started complaining that "I'm not zero! At least throw me a bone or whatever because I'm in there and I'm helping to write these songs! Whether it's picking up a guitar or not, I feel I'm helping!". So we adjusted the publishing deal in which even Robbie who doesn't write, he gets a percentage of the publishing. Where, you know, like on "Faceless" he didn't got zero. I never thought that was fair and so I raised a stand about that and we redid the publishing deal in which everyone gets a little bone from it.. And so Sully will take the majority of it, of course, because he did his.

Had he going in with a drum machine or just played drums himself and then played all the bass and guitar and pianos and sung it and everything… he could have done that. He has a talent to do that… but it wouldn't have sounded the same

But when I saw that, I did go "Well, ok… Looks like, he wrote the whole record himself or something". But really, I feel like this was probably the record in which all four of us contributed most, as far as the actual tone of the songs and everything…Had he going in with a drum machine or just played drums himself and then played all the bass and guitar and pianos and sung it and everything… he could have done that. He has a talent to do that… but it wouldn't have sounded the same. You know what I mean? As for Tony Rombola, what his part is? Tony is the unsung hero really here, because it becomes a writing frenzy, and like the riff changes 20 times. So Tony puts chords in and stuff that sometimes might not be remembered that he helped write that part. And in the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because it can say Sully Erna and he can get the credit for the whole song all by himself, when really the three of us were there helping him get through it. And so, since the publishing is divided up better now. Well, 20 years ago when I joined, I changed the whole thing, man...

Because I've been in bands before. And I'm a drummer. And I'm a writer… I joined this band called Ugly Kid Joe in California and they'd already sold 5.000.000 records when I joined the band. So as a lyricist and a songwriter, as well as a drummer, I come in as the drummer. So the lyricist and singer wrote the lyrics and the guitar players wrote the songs. So here I come in, I'm relegated to my job as a drummer, which is to lay the fat beats and to help with arrangements and to, put my two cents in.

I've always just done side projects, and that allows me to be able to write my music and do my lyrics and stuff. I've always had side bands. Every band I've been with, all my life… Because I'm a drummer and so I come into these bands and they're writing all the songs.

But back to the Godsmack thing. I have nothing against the way that some writers are just basically buy the book and say "OK, I wrote this whole song because I came with the riffs and lyrics". But that said, as long as the publishing is doled out to where everybody gets appeased for putting their two cents in and being in the room for 8 hours while the song's coming together, I feel OK.

With Ugly Kid Joe, as soon as I joined 15%. They want me there and involve with the songs they wrote

And it's funny because, I've been in basically 4 bands. I've played for a lot of bands, but I've been in four bands in which publishing and songwriting and all that shit that comes up. My first band, Wrathchild, we split everything equal. And that's the way I like to do it. And Ugly Kid Joe did the same thing. Five-piece band. As soon as I joined 15%. They want me there and involve with the songs they wrote. You know what I mean? And so I'm going to put my two cents in. The next band was Amen. Amen was different in public. They had this singer that was "I wrote the songs". Again, I rose up and I said "you know, this isn't the way it should be done, because if you want me to be wholeheartedly into your song and put my heart and soul into it and help make it better, then throw me a bone when it comes to like money, in the end". I mean, I'm sitting there in a one bedroom apartment at the time.

So, when I joined Godsmack, I made it to the big leagues. They already sold 7.000.000 records by the time I joined. And we made the "Faceless" record and that that's when I finally saw what the publishing split was, and the songwriting credits. Meanwhile, we'd spent a year together the four of us in rooms and writing this record, and I felt like I'm definitely not worth zero. So, I raised this issue. And Robbie Merrill isn't worth zero… Sully got it and said alright. And we worked out a deal. But anyway, it all ended up fine. But as far as credit goes, I will say that he definitely is the genius of the band. He handpicked all of us. But we all did have a big contribution on every song on this new record.

My involvement with Ugly Kid Joe is I am an Ugly Kid, Joe. I just can't be in Ugly Kid, Joe

Now, because we're running out of time and because you mentioned one of my favorite bands, I'd like to skip a few questions and take you a bit back in time, because in fact I've been a fan of yours before you joined Godsmack, as Ugly Kid Joe were one of my favorite bands of my teens. You know, mid 90s and stuff, a little guy getting into rock music, growing his hair long and loving this band almost no one here in Greece knew. And I still love this band now almost 30 years later. So, they're a soft spot for me. So, recently I had the chance to conduct an interview with Klaus and when I asked "What’s the state with Shannon?". And he was pretty clear that "Shannon is a part of Ugly Kid Joe". I was really happy with it, so what's your relationship with the band right now? How do you feel about Ugly Kid Joe and how was it when you joined the band in that 90s frenzy?

Yeah, you know.. We've straight up broke up after the "Motel California", which was unheard, but great record man… I still listen that thing…

…Me too…

But, you know, we had gotten dropped from a major and then we did the independent label and that one didn't happen. So, it was kind of like "Let's just all go away". We all hugged, and it was a happy moment, but a moment of "it's over". And then 17 years later we got back…

Cordell Crockett, the bass player, is just one of the best bass players I ever worked with… And I’ve worked with Geezer fuckin’ Butler

Meanwhile, I have done a side project called Another Animal in which I enlisted Whitfield to sing. He's brilliant and I love him. I love all those guys. Dave Fortman mixed Godsmack's last record. Cordell Crockett, the bass player, is just one of the best bass players I ever worked with and I’ve worked with Geezer fuckin’ Butler. And Klaus, of course, is the most genuine, nicest man I know. We text each other every week. And yeah, I'm still involved...

So, seventeen years later, we get together. Klaus calls me up "Hey, man. Wit says he wants to do another one. Are you in?". And I'm like "Hell, yeah!". I was in Godsmack, successful at this point and happy, but I was like "Obviously I'm in Godsmack, but I want to play". So, we went together, and we made an EP called "Stairway To Hell". And it's brilliant! I love that too. I love Ugly kid Joe! And so we made that and it did good in Europe, especially like people heard it and liked it and said "well, they're back". Of course, I couldn't go tour, so they got Zach Morris as the drummer and he came in and they played a bunch of great shows. They played festivals, played with Guns N’ Roses, all that stuff. So, they went and became a band again. And I played on the new record "Rad Wings Of Destiny". It just came out. I play on four tracks on that record, and I play all the percussion, all over the whole record, which we did in Texas. God, it's been a couple of years ago. It took a couple years. Pandemic hurt that release too, or made it delay. You know what I mean? But so anyway… my involvement with Ugly Kid Joe is I am an Ugly Kid, Joe. I just can't be in Ugly Kid, Joe. But as far as it goes… obviously whenever I want to go tour I will, and I will always continue to go in the studio with them, as I'm in Godsmack or whatever.. But, I just love them. What else can I say? Ugly Kid Joe rocks. It's California rock'n'roll…

You know, I grew up on the East Coast of America and they moved me to California when I joined. That was 1997 I think, and it changed me, man. It changed me all of a sudden, you know… Whitfield is special. Klaus special. Right now, Ugly Kid Joe has a great new album out and they're touring. They're about to tour America for the first time in almost 30 years! They toured Europe, but not here. And the unfortunate part is that Cordell Crockett's gone, the bass player. And, of course, Zach Morris is gone, the drummer. But what they did kind of do to compensate for that with the fans, they got Dave Fortman back. He's a famous producer, but he agreed "Yeah, I'll tour America. It'll be rad, you know". So you got Klaus and Wit and Dave and so the rhythm section is different. Obviously, I can't do it. I'm going to be out with Godsmack… But, anyway, it's so nice to meet someone else that that likes Ugly Kid Joe, you know.

It’s a lifetime love by now. That can’t be changed. And I have to say it’s really unfortunate that neither Ugly Kid Joe nor Godsmack have ever come to Greece. Let’s hope can contribute to maybe change that even if it’s a bit late. And it's kind of strange, because with Godsmack, you've been four or five times to Bulgaria during the last decade, which is really close, but you haven't come to Greece, I don't know why... Let’s hope you come with both bands because they’re both great and deserve the success they’ve made s far. It’d be great to have you…

Well, thank you, man. We would love to play Greece. It's beautiful country, beautiful food, beautiful people, beautiful culture. And I've never even been physically to Greece. So, I will come there even if Godsmack never plays or Ugly Kid Joe never plays. If I don't find my way there with the band, I will come there on a bucket list. It’s a thing that I must do before I die.