Toby Driver: "Our society is set up for music to be either capitalist or institutional"

Being the creative mind behind the classic avant-garde metal bands of Kayo Dot and maudlin of the Well, Toby Driver is a very significant artist who has already made history. Thankfully, history is still in the making since Toby – always prolific and creative - is involved in various great projects. With two of them – his solo Toby Driver vehicle and with the wonderful Alora Crucible - he will perform live in Greece for the first time, in an unmissable show!

Because of this occasion, we had the pleasure to chat with him for many interesting things: the connection between music and nature, the current situation in the USA, the impact of the pandemic, the upcoming Kayo Dot album and more. The verdict is always the same: Toby isn’t just an extraordinary composer but an extraordinary person, too.

Enjoy his music and experience a great gig!

Hi Toby and welcome back to Rocking.gr! It’s almost 6 years since the last time we chatted for Kayo Dot’s “Blasphemy” and a lot has happened since then. How are you and where does this find you?

Hi Antonis, thanks so much for this interview. From the creative end, things for me have been really productive in the past few years-I was living outside of the city in a sort of rural area, so I had space to build a decent recording studio at home which enabled me to do much better and deeper work. Everything I worked on was influenced by being closer to nature, as opposed to city life, and I think that's apparent in the music. Since this tour has begun, however, I've moved out of that place and am nomadic and unmoored for a while. And the political situation in the US is in such a crisis that it might not be possible to return there by the time this tour ends.

I'm aware that I'm a pretty niche and unknown artist so for me at this moment in my life it's more important that I just focus on creating my own space the best I can

If I am not mistaken, this must be your first European tour in some time, your fans are really excited! You are going to some places (Greece, Iceland) for the first time, what are your thoughts, feelings and expectations?

That's right, it's my first European tour playing the singer-songwriter material since 2018, although Kayo Dot did a short tour in 2023 and I've personally been on a few other tours with different bands. As you said, though, the ballads haven't been presented in a while. That time flew by very quickly, and it's hard to believe that almost 7 years have passed since then, because I feel like I'm on tour pretty regularly. However, the pandemic period was totally disorienting for my sense of time. Needless to say, I'm thrilled to have this long tour of my own music happening, and yes, coming to Greece is enormously exciting! It's one of the world's most interesting places, historically in terms of the Classics and ancient knowledge, and musically, especially in the lineage of new age music which is another reason why presenting Alora Crucible on this maiden visit feels so fitting. I've been receiving messages from Greeks for a long time asking me to perform there, and I've been almost everywhere else in Europe at this point, so it was important for us to be able to make a show happen in Athens this time around. My expectations about the tour are that it will be extremely fulfilling in terms of musicality, comeraderie, and spirituality, and that commercially it will be modest. If we end up with big audiences, it'll be a nice surprise, but I'm aware that I'm a pretty niche and unknown artist so for me at this moment in my life it's more important that I just focus on creating my own space the best I can.

Our society is set up for music to be either capitalist or institutional, with very little support coming from public funds

Do you find differences between audiences in the USA and Europe?

It used to feel like European audiences were more appreciative, but I don't detect that difference anymore. There are a lot of variables that can define the experiences, of course, so I wouldn't generalize about it nowadays. Instead of speaking about the audiences though, the major difference is a cultural value system; even though individual Americans can greatly value the arts, our society is set up for music to be either capitalist or institutional, with very little support coming from public funds. That perspective completely neglects the relationship between culture , humanities, and a healthy society. In contrast, many societies in Europe understand this and treat their artists better. Obviously then, American audience members express their societal conditioning about the arts differently than Europeans do. But most importantly, the differences are a lot more apparent regarding the business, industry, and logistics side than they are regarding audience responses.

Your tour involves both Toby Driver/Alora Crucible, correct? Is it psychologically challenging to perform with two different bands on every gig or does it feel easy and straightforward to you?

In this case, it's not extremely demanding because of the nature of the music. The singer- songwriter material (as Toby Driver) is entirely emotionally heavy and sad, but Alora Crucible is the opposite and therefore they energetically complement one another, creating a more complex narrative and leading to a good feeling of balance at the end of the concert. It was actually more difficult to play only the Toby Driver music on tour like we did in 2016 and 2018, because that music expresses just constant depressive heaviness with no relief. There have also been times in the past when I've played two sets of complex, loud music at the same show, for example Kayo Dot playing with Secret Chiefs 3. That's a different type of exhausting, physical and mental instead of emotional.

The reception has been really great from the fans! And from the press, pretty much nonexistent... that's just the state of things for me

I found “Raven, I Know You Can Give Me Anything” to be a warm and softly melancholic album with a strong focus on your vocals. How has the reception been and what was your main personal artistic intention behind this album?

The reception has been really great from the fans! And from the press, pretty much nonexistent... that's just the state of things for me. People are telling me that they love the record and the songs are going over very well in a live setting. The artistic intention here is a continuation of the singer-songwriter perspective that I began with Madonnawhore and continued with They Are the Shield-that is, very simple songs in the tradition of folk songwriting that are lyrically-driven, but also express a specific vibe of luminous darkness and emotional heaviness. I do this because it's a refreshing contrast to the energy spent making complex, loud, screaming music in my other bands, and healing because I have to write my own lyrics instead of singing Jason Byron's lyrics as in Kayo Dot. And finally, in terms of the timing of this album, above all else I really wanted to do a long tour and needed a new album to make that happen.

Do you perform the Toby Driver material solo?

Sometimes, but on this tour it's a full band.

Do you want to share more on the dream behind “Someday There’ll Be An Avalanche”?

I was seeing a view of high, snow-covered mountains on a sunny day, in the morning hypnagogue, and this song was playing. In the dream, it was sung by Nick Cave. The flute solo in the dream was brighter, fast, overblown, and icy, but later in real life when I asked Terran to contribute, this is what he sent in and I really loved it despiite the deviation.

I think Alora Crucible is a truly fantastic project! When and how did you have the idea for this creative vehicle? I also wanted to ask what the compositional process is: are the songs born from improvisations and jams?

Thanks! During the pandemic I had to move out of the city and back to my hometown in Connecticut, which has a lot of forests and natural spaces. The only way I could spend my time was either inside the house or walking in the woods. I started to reflect on my roots and revisited much of the music that I had listened to in high school-European gothic doom metal for one, and New Age for another. All of that music sounded so much better there in Connecticut than it sounded in New York or Boston, cities I'd lived in. The music was beautifully contextualized by that land, and by memories of my past. I began upgrading my home studio and created Kayo Dot's Moss Grew on the Swords and Plowshares Alike and Alora Crucible's Thymiamatascension in response to this experience. The pandemic wore on, and I soon started playing the hammered dulcimer and spent all of my time practicing it. As the world started to open up again, I stayed in Connecticut, appreciating my newly rekindled relationship with nature and of course the freedom of the home studio, and went further into making music that was inspired by the environment, as you can hear in all of the subsequent albums made up until the end of 2024.

I hope it is OK to ask a few things about your other projects too? 2025 will see a new Kayo Dot album and it is very highly anticipated! When and what should we expect from it? I know it took 3 years to be completed. Please share as much as you can!

Absolutely, you can expect to hear the first song in May with the album coming a few weeks after that. I can tell you that it's yet again something different and it doesn't sound like any of the previous albums. Since it's a 20^th Anniversary album, the band features all of the musicians that were on the Choirs of the Eye 20^th anniversary shows-they're also the same people who played on Choirs of the Eye and were in maudlin of the Well. It also features some people from previous lineups and some new people. It took three years to be completed because over that course of time, I'd start working on a song and then after a while, I would eventually discard it because I realized it wasn't saying what I wanted to say. I think over these three years, there has probably been three additional albums worth of material created and then thrown away before finally arriving at the end result. I wanted to honor the Anniversary, with a lot of artistic homage to Choirs of the Eye, while also making something completely fresh.

I absolutely loved the two latest Extra Life albums where you participate as a bass player. What is your experience with this project? Do you enjoy playing in a band where you are not the composer? Do you find it hard or liberating?

Glad you loved them! Yeah, it's a very fun project to be a part of; the comeradie, music, and workflow are all great, and I've been a fan of Charlie's work for a long time. I used to see their shows in NYC frequently during their first era. I do really enjoy playing in other bands and I think that's an important experience for any composer or bandleader to have, anyway, because of the perspective that can be gained towards bettering one's own techniques. It's greatly liberating, not having to be responsible for organizing anything or carrying the financial burden!

I can't understand how any artist can define themselves at a young age and then just continue to insist upon that for the rest of their life

Do you feel that every project is different and lights your personality from a different angle? Does it require different aspects of your creative self? Also, do you have a favourite one?

Yeah, absolutely. I can't understand how any artist can define themselves at a young age and then just continue to insist upon that for the rest of their life. Or how any musician can just pursue one sound for their entire life. Well, I can understand it from a music industry perspective-moving across many genres makes it a hell of a lot more difficult to find a fanbase. But anyway, it doesn't actually require different aspects of my creative self, as you say. I think the intention and process remains consistent, even if the technical method changes. I don't think I have an actual favorite one, but if I was forced to pursue only one of them at this moment in time, I would choose Alora Crucible. That's not to diminish any of the others but just that I see the most potential for that endeavour.

"(The pandemic) resulted in creating more demand for at least Kayo Dot

The pandemic period was disastrous for many artists. What was the impact on your career?

I think overall it was a good impact so far, although it was really destructive at first. It destroyed the Kayo Dot lineup that we had for Blasphemy, but it enabled the Anniversary actions to happen in a better way. I was able to save money from not living in a city and through some government stimulus, which allowed me to build a home studio and make a lot of great albums at home. It completely ruined any momentum that my bands had with playing live and touring, but that resulted in creating more demand for at least Kayo Dot, which has led to us being able to have bigger fees and bigger opportunities. We'll see on this current tour if that extends to my other projects. The important lessons that I learned, or were verified, were that: #1 in an environment with more financial flexibility and free of distraction, I am extremely productive, and #2 I am not artistically fulfilled by only staying in the studio; live performance and travel are essential to my work.

What music/albums are you currently working on?

Nothing, in fact. In 2024 I made so many albums that this year is dedicated to touring instead of recording or composing.

I'm happy to let the music do all the talking, but I know that most people want something more such as eye contact or stage banter

Do you enjoy the studio or the live performance environment more? How do you experience the connection between you and your live audience?

As I learned in the pandemic, they're both equally important. After all these years, as an introvert I still personally feel a little awkward trying to interact with a live audience with words. I'm happy to let the music do all the talking, but I know that most people want something more such as eye contact or stage banter. I'm trying to get better at that, but it's not natural for me. I think there must be something even more profound to be gained from mastering this angle.

What should your Greek fans expect from your gig in Athens?

We'll play two separate sets featuring music from both of these projects, and I'm even bringing along my big, gorgeous hammered dulcimer, which is something to behold.

The band also features Sam from motW, a nice bonus for the old school fans. Everyone in the room will hopefully end the night feeling more comfortable with their emotional vulnerability. :)

Toby, thank you so much and I hope all the best with the tour and beyond!

Thank you! See you then!