Arjen Lucassen interview: "Whatever musicians do say, you care what people think of it"

16/05/2012 @ 11:16
Every chance to discuss with the Dutch (gentle) giant of prog, Arjen Lucassen is more than welcome. Always open to conversation and pleasant, he gives you the chance to talk about a handful of topics, as he is apart from a great musician, a fan of rock music himself. With a new album in his bags, he talks about a lot of things, reminding us how great it is to have musicians that respect both their work and their fans.

Hi Arjen, how are you doing? Is everything fine?
I’m fine! Thank you very much! I’m just talking about myself, what else could I want, hehe?

So, it’s the first time you typically do a solo record, even though every album you’ve made is kind of a solo record, but this time you are absolutely on your own. What led you to this decision?
Well basically I’ve been trying to do it for the last 5-6 years. Every album I made for the last 5-6 years was supposed to be a solo album. For the last Ayreon album “01011001” I had a song called “Beneath The Waves”, that’s what it started with and it was going to be a solo album, but the next thing I go into the studio and it grows into a monster and I put these heavy guitars on and then it’s like “shit, I want this singer here, maybe this singer there”. And before you know it I have 17 singers and there was no more room for me (laughs). And, the same thing with “Guilt Machine”. It was going to be a solo album and then I heard this Belgian singer who is technically speaking better than me, so I thought “this guy could do a much better job”. And yeah, I’ve trying this for years and years and I thought that now it’s time to do it. I did the Star One album which was a pretty heavy album, and I think the last three albums I did with Star One, Guilt Machine and the last Ayreon were pretty dark and I thought it was time for a more lighter album, for a very eclectic album with many different styles and I thought “hey shit, I want to do this on my own”. So, I decided to proceed like that.

I can understand that. My impression is that it kind of sums up what you’ve done musically with your projects. Maybe not much so much metal and dark, like a mix of “01011001” and “The Dream Sequencer” …
Yeah, there’s a lot of  “The Dream Sequencer” on this one. Definetly! That’s also why on the front cover, if you look at the landscape you can see a little dream sequencer in there. Yeah, I think on every Ayreon album there are some special songs that are sung by me and when people ask me about how does the solo record sound I mostly say to them that it’s like the songs I sing on the Ayreon album.

I agree! The fact that you’ve sung on most of the albums on quite a few songs made it not a surprise for me what I heard on the album. And I can say it flows really well.
That’s good! So what were you expecting?

Arjen Anthony LucassenI can’t say I was expecting something particular and definitely not a new Ayreon album. But to be honest I enjoyed this album way better than I did with “Guilt Machine” and “Victims Of The Modern Age”. I’m not saying it’s better or something, but I did like it better for some reason…
I think it’s because I had more fun doing this. Because, you know, basically when I remember when I was back in the 80s and the 90s I was completely lost and I was trying to do what people wanted. With Vegeance I was trying to do it, then I made a solo album 20 years ago, which was a complete mess and then I started the Ayreon project thinking “fuck it, I’m going to do something that I like and don’t give a shit about what people think”. In a way I lost that feeling, cause like you said the last Star One album, it wasn’t me! It was a good album, but it wasn’t me! It was me trying to please the fans. Trying to think like “hey, people want heavy stuff, they want metal, they want this style” and I wasn’t thinking about myself. And I think this album is kind of an egoistic album, an egomaniac album like “hey, let’s go back to my roots and do what I like and I want to be proud of this one”. Maybe, that’s what you feel, maybe that’s what you got and it worked…

It makes sense, now you’re saying it. But also you mention expectations and I was surprised to see a reference to them on the press release of the album. Do you really care that much, after what you’ve achieved? Are you still trying to meet up with some kind of people’s expectations?
The weird thing is that when I am working on something I don’t think about that. But, when the time gets closer for a release I start worrying about it. Whatever musicians do say, you care what people think of it. And as you might know I have a lot of contact with the fans, I answer all the mails and I answer all the messages. I want them to happy,  I think it’s very important. It gives me a good feeling to know these fans are waiting for my music and that’s a great feeling. And you don’t want to disappoint them…

Of course not. And I think people appreciate you for being so close to them. They, also see you as a friend by any good means of that…
That’s why there’s a song on the album called “The Social Recluse”. Cause that’s me you know. I’ m a complete recluse, I don’t go out and I don’t read the news, the newspaper and I don’t watch TV, nothing! But I am very social, very open with anyone. And, well yeah, that’s me!

So, If I am not mistaken, this must be your first concept album…
What….?!?

I’m joking of course…
(Laughs) You got me…

Ok, I just want you to give some hints about the concept of your new album and then I’ll ask some questions about it…
Sure! It’s basically very simple. It’s about a guy of our times who has an incurable disease and he freezes himself with cryogenics and they wake him up about a couple of hundred years from now, because they found a cure for his disease. They wake him up and they cure him and of course the world has changed completely. And there is a psychiatrist that helps him adjust to this new world. So, basically, it’s about what the future will look like and it’s a realistic look for what I see the future will look like in a couple of hundred years and also how this person will be able to adapt to this world.

Arjen Anthony LucassenWell, it’s quite clear. The overall taste that I got is that this concept was written by a person obsessed with what the future holds, but at the same time yearns for the past…
Hmm, yes, I’m very interested in what the future holds and I’m thinking about it a lot of times, but I have to say that I do live in the present. I don’t really live in the past. Like when people ask me about the band called Vengeance that I had back in the 80s, and they say “Vegeance was great, would you do that again?” and I say “I hate to think about that, I hate to relive the past”…

What I meant was that you yearn for the seventies and the innocence of that time…
Well, you’re right there… Yearn may not be the right word, but I think the music you hear when you’re a teen between 10 and 20 is the music that has the most impact on you and the most influence on you. So yeah, I grew up in the 60s and later in the 70s with Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple and this music still has the most impact on me. I love all these sounds and I love all the experimentation and when you say I yearn for it, I wouldn’t want to go back in them. But I like using my experience and translating it into this time…

Ok, I understand it. So, in this concept, you do discuss some very serious subjects and at the same time some that are have some lighter lyrics. Why would you do this? Isn’t it a little controversial.
It’s pretty controversial! There are some topics there that are really scary (laughs) and I really had to think it. “Am I going to do it? Am I going to get away with it? Am I going to have problems with it?”. So, basically, I decided to treat these really controversial topics with a lot of humor. There is a song about euthanasia which is a hot topic you know and I really had my thoughts about it, so I decided to make a funny song about it which is “Dr. Slumber’s Eternity Hole”. It’s a really happy song and I’m singing like this by saying “You’re coming in, you’re checking out”. It’s a really sad subject, but I can imagine in the future when people will actually live longer – which they will you know – because if they  eradicate diseases. There will be less people and stuff like that and people will get older and I can imagine that when you’re 164 – which is another song of the album – that you’ll be pretty bored (laughs). It ‘ll be like “it’s time to check out now”. And I think it’s quite possible so yeah, I try to have a fun look at some controversial subjects…

Ok. Until now, my favorite track on the album is “Pink Beatles In A Purple Zeppelin” because the melody really sticks to the brain. What was the motive to write such a song both musically and lyrically?
I remember when I had the score I wrote down “John Lennon”. That’s the way to remember which song it was. Solo was like the working title (laughs), I don’t like Rush or Led Zeppelin and I just thought to call it John Lennon. I always record how that feels and I when I started singing, I started singing with that typical accent of John Lennon and I suddenly got that idea for this song with “Pink Beatles In A Purple Zeppelin”. I was thinking what’s the future of music, what’s the future going to look like, cause already now people are repeating things and covering songs, so what will it be like in 20 years, and what will be like in 100 years and what in a couple hundred years? I can imagine that in the far future you will have computer programs that will tailor make music exactly how you want it and if you put in let’s say I like The Beatles, I like Deep Purple and I like Led Zeppelin the computer can make this tailor made song for you. And it will say that “I will make this song for you and I will use the voice of John Lennon and I will sing the melody like Robert Plant”. I think the future might look really cold to someone who might be transported to that in one instant. I think it will grow in it. It grows slowly. It’s not really a pessimistic song…

Ok, but there is one point that I might disagree on that, cause if that’s really what we wanted, maybe we have achieved it already. But I don’t think that’s what we want from music, that’s not how we connect to it. Maybe my point of view is optimistic, but your scenario seems a little bit depressing to me…
Yeah, but look already now! Look at the MTV! If you see some of stuff on the MTV –sometimes I look at it – and it’s so cold, it’s just computers you know, there’s no human side at all, even the voice is computer made you know, it’s all computer made. It’s really cold made stuff already now…

Arjen Anthony LucassenI really can’t stand that music for much time. I believe that the human factor is the most basic element in music…
Definitely! And I’m sure people will keep coming back to it. But, nevertheless, technology is going to be so incredibly advanced in a couple of hundred years. I am sure you won’t be able to tell what’s real and what’s not real and basically that’s the concept of this album. What is real and what is not real. And also that’s the “Blade Runner” reference that I am trying to make in this album. I really think that already now when you see a little movie on youtube with a funny animal doing something the first thing you think is “is this real?” or did it they make it all with CGI? Already now it’s difficult and I’m pretty sure that in a couple of hundred years you will not know what is real and what is not real. You can have Bin Landen saying how much he loves America (laughs) and make it look real. I think it’s a bit scary…

The truth is that if you compare technology level of today with 20 years before, twenty years ahead is quite scary….
Yeah, I grew up in a time when we had no computers. So I know how the world looked like before computers. And I know what it looks twenty years later. This difference between those twenty years is amazing, is astounding. The internet, the downloading and the CGI stuff, what is possible nowadays. And that’s only in twenty years, what can you imagine in 100 years, in 1000 years or in 2000 years…

So, I return the question to you. When you start writing a new album do you ask yourself: “Why create more music if it was all done before”?
(laughs) Hehe, that’s a good question! Yes, it becomes harder and harder to be original. That’s really hard. So, I gave that up. I gave up trying to be original, trying to do something new. When I grab that guitar I just want to make good songs, you know. Catchy lyrics, good melodies and huge sounds and that’s all I’m concentrating on. Having said that, I try not to copy things. Of course I use all the old stuff, so I sound like the 60s and the 70s, but I want to update it to this millennium. And I try to be original in a way. But it should not be a copy. If it’s a copy it’s even worse… You know Beatles when they started the wanted to copy the black music that came from America but they couldn’t do it. But by trying to copy they created their own music, which is interesting too…

Arjen Anthony LucassenWell my point of view is that there is thin line that many people can see. This line separates copying something and being influenced by something while putting your own element. I.e. “Into The Electric Castle” and “The Human Equation” mean more to me than some albums by The Beatles or Pink Floyd. I can’t accept that they’re just influenced by these bands and so I can’t accept that all music has been played before.
Firstly, thank you for your kind words! Secondly, the narration was not written by me. It was written by Rutger Haurer, so it was not me that said “why create more music if it all has been played before”. That’s definitely something that he wrote. Thirdly, that in a couple of hundred years in the future, so that’s not happening now, but in a couple of hundred years, If I had to make albums for another couple of hundred years, wow (laughs) I wouldn’t know what to do?

Are you saying that there is a limit to your inspiration? (laughs)
I’m afraid there is, yes! It’s the thing I’m most afraid of…That’s why always dive into a black hole when I finish an album. It’s always like “Oh, my God, that’s it, I did everything, the world is ending, there’s nothing”. But so far I always climb out of the black hole, but it’s my biggest fear. One, not to be creative anymore and two not to enjoy music anymore. Those are two very scary things. And it’s getting harder and harder for me to find music that I still like…

That comes as a surprise to me judging by the guests on your albums. You always seem to find the top of the crop, so that has to mean that you listen to some good music…
I do listen to a lot of music. I listen to music every other day when I jog – that’s when I try to listen to new music. I listen to music every evening, at eleven I lie down on my couch with my headphones on, the lights off and I listen to music. That’s usually old music. And I read a lot of magazines. I love music magazines and a lot of reviews. I always write down, I always have a pen and paper. And I have this huge list that I want to check out. Then I go to youtube and I check out these bands and If I like it I download it, if I like it I buy it. So yeah, that’s my whole life…

Ok, let’s go back to the album cause we can talk about things like that for hours…
Oh, you’re right…

The other song that draw my attention was “Where Pigs Fly”. At first I thought you would talk about London, but you just try to rearrange the history of art, haha…
(laughs) Definitely! Well, I was thinking we’ve got the Large Hardon Collider, which you might know…

Arjen Anthony LucassenHmm, no…
It’s this big thing that…oh it’s too hard to explain…They did this experimentation and they found that there must be eleven dimensions. Otherwise, some equations just won’t fit. And I was thinking what would the other dimensions look like or what a parallel universe would look like and basically this song was a joke. I just wrote some lyrics and I said let’s create an alternative English image where everything is different from here. To me this song was a joke but then I played it to the fans and they loved it. So, I said I’ll put in on CD 1.

Then “Yellowstone Memorial Day” seems to have emerged straight from “01011001”. Even the intro reminds of “The Age Of Shadows”…
Right, yeah, right! It’s definitely the industrial sounds. I love the industrial sounds. I think It goes back in the 80s with Depeche Mode and of course I like stuff like Rammstein, you know with all the industrial sounds. I think “Yellowstone Memorial Day” has a definite 80s feeling to it. Little bit of gothic, I don’t know if you know Sisters Of Mercy, Bauhaus and stuff like that from the 80s. I wanted to gibe that feeling. And yeah it was the same on “01011001”, as I used a lot of industrial sounds too then.

I have to admit that when I found out that the first CD is less than 50 minutes I was worried!  “What have they done to Arjen? Only 50 minutes?”. Then I saw there was a second CD and my heart when back to its place…
(laughs) Well, the thing is we had these little behind the scenes movies and they had to fit in the CD too, so I couldn’t make more than 50 minutes

So, you put some of the songs on the second CD…
Yeah, right. Because I had 15 songs and they couldn’t fit on one CD. Because we also wanted to have the little movies as CD-ROM tracks. So then I thought “well, I’ll put 10 songs on the first CD and 5 songs to the bonus CD. And then I said “only 5 songs?”. As you said that’s not like me (laughs). I wanted to give 20 of them. Then I thought why not record some covers. I was planning to record 1 or 2 covers, but then I had fun making it. So, I asked the fans on facebook if they could pick some songs that are related to the future. And I got about a million of suggestions. It really helped me cause they mentioned the Alan Parsons. So I ended up with 5 covers which made it ten songs for the album and that’s nice. Then I was talking with the record company how we’re going to call it. Is it a main album and a bonus album? And I said “fuck, why give it a name?”, it’s just two albums. The first one is the whole story and the second one is part of that story with a couple of cover songs that are somehow related to the concept. So yeah, the point is that if you call it bonus CD the people take the songs less serious and I love the songs as much as the ones on the first CD.

Somehow it seemed to me that you “industrialized” these covers. Am I right?
“Welcome To The Machine” definitely yeah (laughs). Once again I think I have the “01011001” sound, but the song is just called “welcome to the machine”. There are machines that can be original as well. That song, I was afraid to touch it, it’s one of my favorite songs. “I cannot do this song, it’s holy”. But then  I said, that if I am going to do it I’ll have to do it completely different, I have to make it like Rammstein playing a Pink Floyd song. The same thing with “The Battle Of Evermore” from Led Zeppelin. It’s a classic song, but the original is just acoustic guitar and mandolin, so why not put drums on it and give it that feeling. So yeah, with these songs I tried to do something completely different than the original, they ‘re such classic songs.

Well, the one I enjoyed the most was Zappa’s “I Am The Slime”. But, I could swear I can hear Damian Wilson singing on the chorus, although he’s not mentioned in the credits…
Right, it’s the backing singer! You’re absolutely right! But it’s a fan that has been emailing me for five years now and he is a huge Damien Wilson fan. Actually 5 years ago, the first song he sent me was “And The Druids Turn To Stone” (from The Dream Sequencer) which is a song by Damien. So you heard very well, as he’s got that Damien touch in his voice.

Arjen Anthony LucassenAnother thing now… I understand that collaborating with Rutger Hauer must be a dream come true. He truly did a very good narrating job, but tell us how you contacted him and how it was working with him…
It is definitely a dream come true, without a doubt. Because, I’ve been a fan of him since I was 10 years old. There was a TV series on Holland called “Floris”, he was the main character and I was a big fan, you know. It was this medieval series about knights, horses and castles. I wanted to be him. So, he’s always been one of my favorite actors, especially when he got international and of course with “Blade Runner” which is also my favorite film of all time. He had an amazing part in that. From the first moment I had this concept album for my solo album I had him in mind. I remember jogging and running home and writing the first lines for the narration. Between records I put Rutger Hauer. So, yeah, he was the first one that we contacted through his website. To my surprise we got an answer! I think he must have googled my name or something…

Maybe he found people admiring you…
(laughs) Yeah, because on Star One I wrote a song about him. It’s a song called “It All Ends Here”, which is about “Blade Runner”, seeing things from his eyes. So, yeah, I remember he said “send me some music”, he was very interested to see how it sounds like and he said “let’s this if this can be real”. And that says it all. This guy is very real and that’s what I like about him, he is so real. In the end, I had a lot of contact with him, we’ve been skypeing for weeks and in the end he wrote all his own words. Which is great! Because, all he had to do, was to do the narration just right. But no! He completely emerged himself in the story and the music and completely wrote his own stuff.

Tell us a few things about the artwork. The cover is very nice but you know promos these days are way too digital…
I know…

The artwork on your albums is always important for your whole idea, so tell us about it…
Artwork has always been incredibly important to me. Already, as a kid the amount of the LPs I bought only for the artwork is so big. And of course, often it’s a disappointment… But yeah but even know that as you said digital downloads are so important I still don’t give a shit cause I want that cool artwork. And I found this guy who is also a big Star Trek fan and sci-fi fan and we had a lot of fun and it was exciting working on the artwork. The artwork is actually as eclectic as the music, every image in the booklet is different than the other image and there are so many different styles. I wanted it to be very colorful, cause like I said my last few releases were so dark. So I was going for really, really colorful this time and I assure you’re going to love it. It’s going to be a beautiful media book again, it’s going to have 32 pages and every page will have a different image and a different feel. I’m very proud.

Talking about artwork, as we speak I hold the  the vinyl reissue of “Into The Electric Castle”, the edition with the golden vinyls actually!
Cool!

Now, although I have the CD, since I got the LP I will only play the LP. Cause all the artwork helps get in the music, give the time it needs and it’s that kind of magic that some people can’t even know as they don’t even buy music anymore…
Well, they didn’t grow up with it. I grew up with that. So I appreciate it. These days they don’t even know about it. It’s not part of the world anymore. So, yeah, from one side you could say that’s a shame, but on the other side it’s just the way it goes. You can’t fight it and you can do nothing about it…

But, isn’t there a kind of return to vintage stuff vinyl, to good artworks, to expensive, limited productions?
It’s true. It’s true, but it’s a very small percentage… You hear everywhere that vinyl is back again, but it’s still like 5% of the sales. It’s not a big thing. But, nevertheless, it’s a good thing to know that there are still people who really love that kind of stuff and really go for that.

Ok Arjen, I think we already have said enough and we know this could go on for a long time (laughs). So I think the epilogue is all yours to say anything you’d want to say…
Well, getting back to expectations, all I am hoping for this album is that people are not expect this big rock opera, this big metal opera with all these singers and bombastic, epic element. I really hope that people have an open mind and they enjoy it. I think it’s a really adventurous album and I think it’s really entertaining and I just hope that people won’t have the wrong expectations. That’s my only worry right now.

My last statement. Please consider a new Ayreon album…
Oh definitely! I want to. I’m just waiting for the inspiration. But I definitely want to. Maybe it’s the next one..

Thank you Arjen! Till the next time…
Yeah, maybe for Ayreon…

Oh, I wish… (laughs)
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