Protest The Hero: "Major corporations and capitalism will lead this world to an early end"

What a band Protest The Hero always has been and still is! And what a guy Rody Walker has always been and still is. And it’s still mind-blowing to think that he co-founded the band twenty five years ago when he was 15, and they put out their debut album before we even was 20 years old. And it’s amazing that twenty one years later Protest The Hero still stand strong and they sound untamed and relevant as ever, as they released their sixth full-length album "Within" a couple of weeks ago.

We had the chat to talk with Rody about their new album, what has stayed intact and what has changed in their approach, the ethos of the band, the punk element in their music, their relationship with major corporates and his love for Propagandhi, among many interesting topics.

Just enjoy this one of a kind guy!

Hello, Rody.

Hey there. How you doing, Chris?

I'm doing fine. How are you?

I'm very well.

How are things going in Canada?

Things are going all right. A little bit of wildfires going on here. Hard to breathe sometimes, but overall good.

We are not there yet, but it’s midsummer in Greece, so it's hot as you'd expect it to be.

Yeah, I would expect that. Things are good otherwise?

Everything’s fine! And I'm really happy to have the chance to talk with you, because I've been following Protest The Hero for more than 15 years, probably since you started out. But, I didn't have the chance to talk with you yet. So let's fix this.

Yeah! I'm very happy to speak with you, Chris.

Could this be your first time that you talk with someone from Greece regarding Protest the Hero?

I think it is. When I think back on it, I personally have only ever been to Greece once and it was on a vacation. Even though Protest The Hero has known Europe quite a lot, we've never been to Greece for some reason.

It’s so strange to me that Greece is not on the regular touring schedule, because there's tons of people there that love heavy metal

I've been thinking about that… Now that you've got a twenty years career under your belt and this means that your chances are higher to play here, because the audience here are responding a bit slow, if I may say that... With a few exceptions, we get to see most bands after a couple of decades since they started out. For example, we just saw Trivium for the first time a couple of weeks ago and tomorrow we see Godsmack for the first time. So, there's still hope for Protest the Hero, I guess…

That's so strange to me that Greece is not on the regular touring schedule. Because, obviously, there's tons of people there that love heavy metal.

I think it's got to do with logistics, having to take a flight to come to Greece or else it needs to be combined with a couple of emerging countries like Bulgaria and Romania. So it's not always that easy. But I think we're getting there. I personally know a lot of people here that would love to see Protest The Hero live.

Well, we'd love to come. I mean, I got to say, back in the day, we used to fly all over the place to like Latvia and Estonia and shit like that. There'd be like a million flights on every European tour. And we would be going to much more miserable places than the beautiful Greece... (laughs)

And what I can reassure everyone is - because I had the chance to see you about 10 years ago in Hellfest - that you are an absolutely mind-blowing, live band. They'll have their minds blown when they leave the venue. I'm pretty sure about that.

Well, that was 10 years ago. It might be different now… (laughs)

Naaahhh… I think I've seen enough bands in my life to know if they have it or not. Chances are that you will still be great…

Well, thank you very much Chris!

"I don't want to do this when I'm 30. I don't really want to be an old man in a band". And now I'm fucking 40 and I'm still doing it

So looking back at these twenty years, what are the main takeaways of a career in music for you and how different has the journey been so far in comparison to what that teenager thought it would be like when he started out?

The journey has been a long one. I don't know… I never had very big expectations. Like with our first tour manager, I remember saying to him and he loved it "I don't want to do this when I'm 30. I don't really want to be an old man in a band". And now I'm fucking 40 and I'm still doing it. So, my expectations are exceeded.

Okay! And music wise, did you expect it to be better, to be easier, or to be harder? You know, the balance between business stuff and the music stuff and all that.

It's hard to say, right? Everyone's path is different and we're a pretty niche artist. I think, around 2008 we sort of hit this hot spot with "Fortress" where we blended in with some of the popular metalcore stuff that was happening. But after that, we didn't want to blend in with that stuff. And to some degree, it was a detriment. But for the most part, I think it has helped us carve our unique little personality out. And whether that's made us less successful than we could have been, it's not particularly important, because it ultimately made us happy

There has never been a record and I doubt there's even a song that doesn't have the punk beat in it

Now, if there's one thing that I always found difficult about Protest The Hero is to try to describe your musical style to listeners who want their music to tick specific boxes and have specific influences. So I tend to describe you as "modern progressive metal", so that someone will expect some extra information in your music. But, I guess you disagree with that, right?

No, I don't disagree. I think the music is progressive in nature. Any label that has progressive in it was probably apt. One time we got called a progressive screamo band. And I think that was probably the most accurate anyone's come… (laughs)

But, we have a wide range of influences and I think we fit partially in several boxes, like post-hardcore, metalcore… stuff like that vaguely defines us. But we’re not very concerned about it, because when we define it like that, it sort of puts you in a little box and then you have to live within that box and we're not content in any box. But I know that also sometimes leaves listeners also not content. Like, we've had some people I've noticed on the comments say like "Oh, this stuff's a little more punkier than I would have preferred". And to me, that's a really good thing. I love punk music. I love hardcore music. And I want that always to be of the heartbeats of the band. There has never been a record and I doubt there's even a song that doesn't have the punk beat in it. So, for people to not like it because it's having that element taking center stage at moments, it’s like someone misinterpreting our mission statement… (laughs)

We’re not for everyone. And I understand that. It’s widely due to the peculiar way in which I sing, but there's not a whole lot I can do about it

I want to understand why someone would try to limit you in a box. There are other bands that maybe tick these boxes. So go listen to them. And if you offer something new, just try to see what it offers, what different it can bring to you. That's my mindset.

I agree. And I mean, we're not for everyone. And I understand that. It’s widely due to the peculiar way in which I sing, but there's not a whole lot I can do about it. I sound the way I sound…(laughs)

But if it's difficult, to describe your music or label you, as I already said it's really easy for me to say that you are a great live band. And I always wondered how you manage to balance this energy you have with the technical aspect. It's phenomenal. Does it take too much time doing your homework to achieve this level?

It takes a lot of rehearsal, no doubt. I haven't done a full band rehearsal yet for this tour, but I rehearse every day. And doing the stage show, I find at different times it's been different. Like we went out on one tour last year and I couldn't catch my breath the whole time. And then I came home and I started doing a lot of fucking things like cardio. I started going for runs every day and then we went out on the next tour and I was like, "No problem!". I can fucking jump around and sing at the same time. So it's a delicate balance and it takes a lot of, especially as I get older. You got to maintain your cardiovascular fitness… (laughs)

I'm 45. I get I get what you're saying. It's only getting harder to keep fit.

I used to be 20 years old, smoke pack a day and drink like a fish and I'd get up on stage and be able to jump around and sing my whole part. I can't do any of that shit anymore… (laughs)

Don't try it. I guarantee you the next day is going to be hell…

That's right.

So, of course, the main reason for this interview is that you have a new album that just came out and it's once again fantastic. So congrats for it, first of all.

Thank you very much.

This is the very first time since we were 14 years old that we have actually owned something that we've made

The first question I need to ask about is what really happened and you got from a real strong label like Spinefarm where you released "Palimpsest" to release "Within" on your own. Why this did happen and how was it for you to go independent at this stage of your career?

We have signed a lot of deals with a lot of different labels over the years. We've had different managers and all sorts of stuff, and our rights are just scattered. And we really want to consolidate that. So this isn't necessarily like a middle finger to the record labels or anything like that. This is about just taking it all back and owning what we've made. It's been a really long time since we've owned anything that we've made. When we were 14 years old, we signed with a manager and we signed with a fucking independent record label and we signed our rights away. Like from that moment on. And this is the very first time since we were 14 years old that we have actually owned something that we've made. And it's a peculiar thing in the music industry… We don't have a great story, we've been taken advantage of… but there are people with way worse stories than us. So, this is for us it's a proud moment and an important moment where we take back our career and we just we own it ourselves. And I know there's growing pains and there's difficult things, like I know particularly in Europe, people aren't that stoked on shipping and how much it costs… (laughs). But we're doing all of this ourselves, and it's the first time we've ever done it. And we're excited, we're proud, BUT it also comes with its difficulties, right?

Ultimately major corporations and fucking capitalism is what's going to lead this world to an early end

Yeah, it does. You know, it's not something new for me to hear from a band or a musician to say that they’ve kind of being ripped off or maybe taken advantage because they gave away all the royalties, all the rights or whatever. But, what always surprises me is why labels tend to like revengefully keep these rights even when they don't really believe in the band or they don't have a purpose to do something with them. I mean, why is that happening?

It's out of spite. It's like a spiteful fucking thing. And that has happened to us, where labels are not particularly happy with decisions that we've made and so they go "Fuck you, we're not gonna really work on your record. We'll hold the rights to it. We'll put it out. We'll fucking make the physical copies of it, but we're not gonna sell it. We're not gonna put it in stores. We're not gonna do any of this stuff". And I'm not calling out any specific label. I'm just saying this has happened to us… with specific labels. And it's a spite move and it sucks, because these aren't the people creating. As much as there are wonderful people involved in that, they are not the people that are creating the fucking music. We are! And to have our careers shut down by someone who can't fucking make music is the worst. Not every label does that. Not every label is the devil, but people can be very spiteful and corporations specifically can be very spiteful. So, that's part of the reason why I went away from all of that, just on chance that one of these labels does something like that or becomes something like that. I don't think it's something that happens all the time, especially not when dealing with labels that came up the right way through like punk and hardcore. But as soon as you start dealing with like major fucking corporations, it's a huge issue. And that goes outside of music as well. I think ultimately major corporations and fucking capitalism is what's going to lead this world to an early end.

We maybe are a bit romantic and that makes us naive when we talk about music, because we tend to connect it with the purest feelings. The creation of something is a labor of love more than it’s about earning money out of it in the first place. You just connect with it because it makes you happy, it makes you whole. And I don't think that's the case with being, let's say, a business consultant.

I agree. I think art and commerce have a very tumultuous relationship. Because, artists don't typically think like business people and business people don't think like artists. And we sort of need each other, right? Like they need us to create the product. We need them to fucking sell the product. But art is not cutthroat. It shouldn't be anyways. It's beautiful and it's wonderful and it's about expression and it's about storytelling and connecting with people. And business is like the exact fucking opposite. So, I understand why we don't get along while simultaneously needing each other. I also hate it. (laughs)

The overall premise is the same, the real heart of this band is we want to write fast, complex music that you can sing along to. That's the entire fucking mission statement

Back to the album, when you push play, it seems like a typical Protest The Hero record that you cannot mistake it with anything else. Yet, if you've listen to it closely, I think there are some different elements and vibes in comparison, to "Palimpsest" or previous works. First of all, would you agree? And secondly, if yes, what are the main differences in your opinion and why did they occur in this album?

Yeah, I agree. I agree there's differences. While the overall premise is the same, the real heart of this band is we want to write fast, complex music that you can sing along to. That's the entire fucking mission statement. But there are significant differences between this and anything we've released. This is by far the shortest thing we've released. And potentially, I think this is the most personal thing that we've ever put out, for me especially. But I know that the boys connect with it as well. Some of the writing like "The Mariner", for example, I'm speaking on behalf of the fellas. And also on "Grandfather's Axe" I'm speaking from the perspective of all of us. That's something that we've never really touched on before and people are picking up on it. It’s funny reading comments and reviews of people, and I'm getting a lot of pats on the back that I feel are unearned. You know what I mean? A lot of people are like "Wow, he's really grown as a fucking lyricist and vocalist and shit like that". And I'm like, "I don't think I've grown at all. I just fucking do what I always do". (laughs)

Yeah, I get it. But I can see why they would do it. The lyrics have always been a very integral part of your musical proposal and this time it's more personal and sometimes it moves me as well. Or they make me think, but that has happened a lot in the past as well. But, here is the best pun I could come up with: the first song that got me hooked is "Fishhook"!

Aaaahhh! There we go. There we go. I love it.

It got me when I listened to it along the lyrics, because I do connect with this feeling that I have to deal with dickheads all the time, who think that they have a strong opinion, but they just talk bullshit. And then I realized that by the way that I treat these dickhead, sometimes I'm a dickhead too. I really love that stuff. It's a great song, by the way. Did I get it right?

Well, yeah, that's the exact interpretation of it. That is what I meant. And that was the easiest song in the world for me to write in part because, the way that the music sounded, it sounded like something that I've been writing over or listening to since I was very young. I came in from a conversation with my neighbor and I was kind of pissed off, so I went down to the basement to work and within probably about an hour, I had 3/4 of that song done, which is not usually how I work. Usually it takes me weeks. And I was going like lyrics, melodies, everything's fucking there because I just came down and I was like "This guy's driving me fucking nuts".

And then you have the internet and suddenly there are so many of them...

Yeah. That's exactly right. And these are conversations that 10 years ago you wouldn't really expect to be having with people. You wouldn't expect to be someone espousing such extremist beliefs. When he starts out being like "Oh, the government needs to be a little more fiscally responsible" to being like "COVID is a hoax", "Trans people don't deserve any rights", and "Justin Trudeau is a fucking communist tyrant". I'm all like "What are you talking about? What are you fucking saying right now?". That's what I meant when I said he's using these big words that he can't quite define.

And as he sat there and I said "What is communism? Define fucking communism". And he can't. He doesn't know what fucking communism is. He just knows that it's a bad thing and that he thinks that the former Prime Minister of Canada was a communist despite the fact like leading one of the fucking biggest capitalist countries on the fucking planet… He's a moron. But he is a symptom of a larger problem.

The first death is when you physically die. The second death is when everyone's forgotten you, the last speech of your name. And I thought it would maybe be a nice thing to tie our second deaths together

Yeah, I get it and I agree with you. But, usually these persons don't let the truth get in the way of a good story and they have a good story in their hands that somehow makes sense to them. Τhey won't listen to logical arguments, so you're not gonna win. Then, I mentioned before that I was moved by some things in this album and of course "Liberty Spike" is such a heartfelt and such a beautiful tribute, I guess, to someone important to you that passed away. These must be your most personal lyrics, right?

Yeah, I would think so. He was my first friend that I ever made. We didn't maintain our friendship, we fell out as you do, as you get older. But I wanted to tie our destinies together. Think about the concept of the second death. The first death is when you physically die. The second death is when everyone's forgotten you, the last speech of your name. And I thought it would maybe be a nice thing to tie our second deaths together. For whatever my fucking legacy is, as long as people remember me they'll remember him as well.

That’s beautiful. And of course, you share a really intense story on "The Mariner" when you lost your voice during a show and you thought that you're done with being a singer in general. But then the crowd took over and helped you get through this difficult situation. And it's something bigger than that. Because it gave you back the hope that people can bring you out of a difficult situation. That society can give you back sometimes the strength that you need as a person, while you as a person can give back to society. It's give and take, right?

Absolutely. I think, that's exactly it.

And it was a night to remember…

Of course. It was a horrible night, but it was magical night, you know?

It’s indicative to how music can make something horrible turn to something magical…

Yeah. And it's great. I also I did it spitefully, because I got a couple of messages from some guys being like, "Fuck you, I paid a fucking 20 bucks to go to the show and you fucking didn't sing". I'm like "What do you fucking want me to do?" So it's going "You know what, you little dickheads, you're left out of this memory. You're not fucking included"…

Yeah, There's always some dickheads, you can avoid them...

Always!

I definitely closed some doors, when I said some stuff I didn't mean about other bands or something like that

Maybe this time, this album is not that social or politically oriented in comparison to your previous works. But still, you're a person that you talk about important stuff and you've always given the impression that you don't hold back your voice. And, at the same time, through your music, it seems that you don't get everything that you say too serious. I think that’s great. But, has this mentality of yours got you into any trouble or even closed some doors along the way for you?

Oh, absolutely! As I've gotten older, I've gotten better at being more earnest and being less of a fucking bigmouth, I guess. I used to run my mouth all the time and I didn't really mean the stuff that I was saying, just being a little sensational, I guess. I definitely closed some doors, when I said some stuff I didn't mean about other bands or something like that. And then you get someone pissed off and they slam a door in your face or, you go on stage and you say a bunch of bullshit and then you get pulled aside by the tour manager and going like "If you say shit like that again, you're off the fucking tour"…

I don’t know…. It's a fine line. As this world has progressed into a place where a lot of people say things that they don't mean and things that are just sensational, I want to be further and further away from that. Because, even though I wasn't doing those things to be harmful in any way, or especially make money, that's what people do now. It's that same mentality that I had, but it has an agenda. It's like "say something provocative, say something sensational, say something that's maybe not based in fact". And what is the purpose? The purpose is to create a following of loyal fucking minions who are going to drop money on your stock trading course or whatever Andrew Tate sells. I don't fucking know what he sells, but whatever it is, it's not worth it.

The punk rock that we grew up on talked about empathy, about people being treated properly and equal and fair treatment for all

I get it. In any way, I encourage you to keep saying what you say, because in the end you talk about love, empathy, understanding each other and that. That's what I get that is the bottom line.

I think that's always been the ethos of the band. It comes from like the punk rock that we grew up on. Bands like Propagandhi, NoFX to some degree… bands that talked about empathy, that talked about people being treated properly and equal and fair treatment for all.

I don't know if there's anyone as progressive as Propagandhi, both politically and technically

Now that you mentioned Propagandhi, I got a friend and co-writer in our in our site, who - when I told him that I'm talking with Protest The Hero - told me that you are for progressive metal, what Propagandhi are for punk.

Well, that is a huge compliment! I think Propagandhi in certain pools you could consider them progressive metal as well. They get heavy, they get thrashy, and they're proggy as fuck, as far as a punk band goes. I don't know if there's anyone as progressive as them, both politically and technically.

My last question is something completely different, because I really loved your participation on Charlie Griffith's Tiktaallica album last year. You sung on… something with "Lines"… Shit, I’m stuck…

Fault Lines"…

Oh yeah! And your performance was absolutely amazing. And I think your voice would sound great in a band in the vein of Annihilator or Anthrax. In fact, I mentioned that you're the best singer Annihilalter never had, and they're from Canada too! So would you consider doing something in that vein, maybe a simpler, and more straight up thrash metal album?

Maybe! The thing is… Charlie and I have never met. We're friends. We're internet friends. He sends me stuff to do. Usually we do like a Christmas song together. And then he just like teaches me about the older metal stuff that I don't really know about. Like I had to learn a Megadeth song and I had to learn a Slayer song. And I'm not super well versed in either of those. But now I know the songs very well, but I only know these weird-ass Christmas parodies that Charlie sent me… (laughs). Charlie is educating me in the ways of that specific type of metal. But it's never really been a consideration of myself, because I'm not super interested in that type of metal. BUT, whatever Charlie wants to do, I'm there for. So if he wants to write something like that, I'll sing on it.