Porcupine Tree: "We've never done anything just for the money"

The news of Porcupine Tree's return at the end of 2021 - that's about two years away - came as some of the best music news of recent years. It was accompanied by the record return of the excellent "Closure/Continuation" and the first cycle of this new period of the band was sealed with a large and very impressive world tour. This cycle seems to be completed with the release of "Closure/Continuation.Live", CD/DVD filmed on November 7, 2022, in Amsterdam.

On the occasion of this release, we had the opportunity to chat with the band's keyboardist, Richard Barbieri and find out everything we wanted to know about the band's return. The making of "Closure/Continuation", what has changed in the relationships between the members of the band, the response from the fans that exceeded their expectations and why they consider themselves completely different from any other progressive rock act. At the same time, we talked about the difference between analog and digital equipment, and about the value that the physical product in the streaming day and age how much should a work of art cost nowadays...

All of the above and much more were discussed, with Richard being very open and very comfortable to discuss all these issues, leading to a very interesting interview that you can read below...

C: Hello, Richard. How are you doing?

I'm doing fine. How are you?

C: I'm OK…

That's great. I remember you…

P: Yeah, he's well known… Greetings from Rocking.gr and from Athens, Greece. My name is Pantelis… You already know Chris and I would like to thank you for the opportunity that you are giving us for this conversation. You have a new live album and so we have some questions for you. Should we start?

Yeah, absolutely…

All the time Steven was telling the press Porcupine Tree is finished, so it was very weird…

P: "Closure/Continuation" was a very welcome album by Porcupine Tree and I’ve read in interviews that it contained ideas mostly from back in the period just after "The Incident". Did it only contain ideas from that time, or did it also contain new/fresh ideas as well?

It's a bit of everything… because the album was composed and recorded over a 10-year period… nearly 10 years. So, it started off with Gavin and Steven in 2012 that they just started making music together. They live near each other and just wanted something to do. It was going well. Steven was playing bass… it had a different kind of sound. They could work quite quickly and quite well together because it was very instinctive.

And then a couple of years later, they played me some things. I really liked that and I started playing on top of these. All the time Steven was telling the press Porcupine Tree is finished, so it's very weird… (laughs) And then I started to send music. And it just went from there…

As for the style of the album… it was recorded in different periods, so it covers a lot of ground. People have changed a lot over that time. Our musical influences have changed maybe… Our friendship changed to a certain degree. It’s quite interesting.

P: How did it feel recording and writing with Steven and Gavin again? Did it feel natural, or did you also have some awkward moments, after so many years?

No! They recorded on their own... So, basically… the way it was recorded, it was those two playing live together, doing live sessions. With me it’s something different. It's more I have my own studio here and I work in a different way. I send Steven things that are more abstract. Maybe something a little bit like a chord progression or some melodies, but also some sounds, atmospherics... I try to reach his imagination or find something that he will find interesting, or he can find the story for. There was two pieces in particular, he immediately could see, he could even envisage what the story was and what he wanted to say. And it worked really well.

P: It's not very clear if there's going to be another Porcupine Tree album. Steven is again, saying that "we don't know, etc". Do you have any breaking news for us or is it unclear even for you in the band?

(laughs) No! Even if we did have breaking news we wouldn't tell you… (laughs)

We've never done anything just for the money

C: I’ll take this as breaking news… (laughs)

No, we really don't know. We had a meeting recently and we all agreed that if we could come up with something really different and interesting, that was again pushing the boundaries of Porcupine Tree, that could be good. And then we spoke about live shows and we thought there's no point to go out and just do the same songs again in a normal live show. We'd just be doing it for the money. And we've never done anything just for the money.

"We're not a nostalgia band

P: But you have an impressive back catalog...

Yeah... We're not a nostalgia band.

P: Ok…

So, we also agreed if we could find a way of making this music on stage seem different, if we could find some different media or some something that would enhance or change or be a step forward, then we might try that one day. So, we don’t know...

P: You don’t know, but you need to have a certain motivation for touring again...

If any of us started doing something or played something to the other guys… I think it would be received well now. Because everything's been positive. You know, the tour was great. The album we think was a really strong album, so it's easier to make things happen. But, of course, time goes by really quickly and there's lots of things Steven and Gavin probably wanna do as well. There’s stuff I wanna do. So, who knows?

There's a Porcupine Tree sound and DNA that the three of us have

C: If you were to make a new album would you consider writing in the same the same process as you did for "Closure/Continuation" or would you consider changing things a bit? Maybe doing it altogether live? Or getting some of the guys that you had on tour to help you with some fresh ideas or their playing or whatever?

I think we'd stay in the same formula. There's a Porcupine Tree sound and DNA that the three of us have. I think we managed to get that on this last album. I think between the three of us, that is the Porcupine Tree sound. To work with other musicians or have other musicians bring ideas to the Porcupine Tree sound I don't think that would really work.

C: Well, I wasn't exactly thinking of bringing song ideas. Maybe they could bring their chops to ideas that you already have. Or maybe a different flavor or something like that. I get what you're saying…

Yeah, I know what you mean. Like a guest musician or something! We've had Robert Fripp or Adrian Belew or Alex Lifeson, so we've had other guitarists play on tracks before…

C: Who are these guys? I don't know them…

Yeah, yeah… (laughs)

It seems that in ten years the fanbase had tripled. Not doubled but tripled!

C: So, let's go to the tour. You I think you had a really amazing world tour that was really well received. I don't if it went beyond your expectations or it if was just like you imagined it would be, so how did it feel? Also, how did you choose to record and put out it a DVD in the age of streaming? Myself I am a fan of live DVDS, I own literally hundreds of music DVDs and I have all the ones you’ve put out as Porcupine Tree, but I am not even sure if bands put out DVDs anymore…

Well, the reception was better than we thought. We didn't realize it was going to be that that good. It seems that in ten years the fanbase had tripled. Not doubled but tripled! So, we were now playing much, much bigger venues and right from the very first show. We did a show in Toronto. It was the first show of the tour and Toronto has never traditionally been a great place for us. Montreal and Quebec were always very enthusiastic. Toronto was never that enthusiastic in the past, but when we came out on stage the crowd went crazy and they gave us a standing ovation. Like an encore! They were applauding for maybe ten minutes before we even started the show. And that was fantastic. And that gave us such a good feeling and that kind of set the tone for the tour. The audiences were really-really great… So, yeah, we were we were surprised at how the fan base has grown.

In terms of doing the live DVD, were you questioning why are we doing one or why we chose to do one in Holland?

C: I was questioning in the first place, why did you choose to put out the DVD… because we're living in a streaming day and age of things. So, maybe you could just stream a live so it would be there forever on streaming services or youtube or whatever… As I mentioned I am a big dan of them, but maybe they’re like old fashioned. Do you agree with that?

Well, I think probably it is old fashioned, but we are old fashioned in terms of releasing things on CD, vinyl and all the kind of hard copy if you like… So, I guess we're not really part of that streaming sort of age yet. We haven't caught up to it. The fans like it. The fans like the product. They like us making beautiful products in lots of different formats. We've got DVD, CD, vinyl, cassette…

P: Blu-ray…

(laughs) Blu-ray, surround, Dolby Atmos… The record label wanted to do it and why? And we thought "Well, great! Why not do it?"

P: Is there a chance that we will see a physical format of the show from Athens 95 that you released a year ago in bandcamp?

Yeah, that was good! (laughs) Have you seen any of the film that we have?

P: The film?

Yeah, we, we've got some film of us in Greece…

P: No! We’ve only listened to the audio…

OK. The film is just very, very amateur kind of type thing, but it's good. And, yeah, those were great memories for us.

C: But then, you didn’t come in Greece on the last tour…

I know… I was waiting for that question.

P: You know, when I said to a couple of friends that I'm going to speak with you, they told me "Ask him when they're coming or beg them to come"… So yeah, you should answer that… (laughs)

Yeah… we really, really wanted to. In the end, it becomes something to do with the logistics. We were running a really big show, so we had like 4 trucks, 3 buses, 30 crew. It was a real big operation that if we didn't have a concert that day, then the amount we were paying for everything was incredible. To get to Greece with that production, do the show and then get back, we would have lost so many days. We wanted to, but the figures weren't adding up.

C: Yeah, unfortunately we're not in the center of Europe.

I know, I know… And there's only one way to get to you guys. It means you can't go anywhere else on the way. There isn't really another way. But, let's hope we can make it happen…

Porcupine Tree is something different, that's outside of the progressive rock thing. I think we go beyond that

P: Or maybe we can reach you abroad…

C: That's the other way around of doing it. Now, there's a question that Pantelis came up with and I think is very nice. It has to do with the essence of Porcupine Tree, because you’re a characteristic example of a band that has grown bigger and bigger with every new record and every new tour you’ve done. It shows from the reception that you mentioned before. So, how would you explain this fact and how did it feel to be part of this transformation from the very first days to being this impressive big band playing, playing sold out shows in venues like the Wembley Arena?

With Porcupine Tree, once people start listening to the catalog, then they get drawn in. And they soon realize that we're a little bit different and that they can only get this music from us and that we're not really part of a genre. I think our music goes beyond that. And for some reason people have a loyalty to it. They want to know what the next album was like or the one after. Then they want to go back and see what that was. It's just down to real quality, quality of music and I think we've always been a really strong live band. So, anytime somebody has said "come and see this band… be my guest, come and see the band", they come back again and then they bring more people. So, it's a very organic thing.

I just think Porcupine Tree is something different, that's outside of the progressive rock thing. I think we go beyond that. I think it's the quality. But the emotional side as well of the music. Because it's not all about technicality and precision and virtuoso playing, it's also about emotions and atmospherics and it means something to people. There's lyrics that are right outside of that progressive rock thing, that are very sort of heartfelt and sad and beautiful. And I think it just reaches people.

People will label you as per their understanding of what you're doing

It does. I can understand that you place yourself beyond progressive rock, but at the same time most people label Porcupine Tree as progressive rock, so how do you feel about it?

Well, it’s fine. People will label you as per their understanding of what you're doing. I guess we're progressive rock because we don't have any hit singles. A lot of our music and our songs are anything from 10 to 20 minutes long. The subject matter is very varied. The musicianship is really good. I don't know… Is that progressive rock? It's the old argument...

P: It’s just a label. I can understand your point of view that you’re outside the progressive genre...

Yeah. I mean, On the new album, the track "Walk The Plank"... Is that progressive rock? Is "Collapse The Light Into Earth" progressive rock? Is "Lazarus" progressive rock?

When you think of other progressive rock bands, what bands do what we do?

C: I think it's become more of a platform for people that like open minded music that doesn't have a certain direction, and in a way it could go anywhere. But, you know, it's still recognizable. So under that condition, you could say that you are a progressive band… it’s the essence of the progress, and not playing again the same formula that was once used to be called progressive. I think you fall in that territory, and I guess being called a progressive band is not that bad, because it's more of a state of mind. Don’t know if you agree…

As well you have to look at the people in the band. First look at the length of time the band's been in existence and then what we've done outside of the band. So, if you think it Steven’s had No-Man, Blackfield, Bass Communion… Really, really different, interesting projects… or the thing with Mikael from Opeth. Gavin has done like jazz, big band stuff. He's worked with King Crimson. He's made his own solo albums. Very different. I've worked with Steve Hogarth, Tim Bowness, Steve Jansen. I've made my own solo albums, which are mainly electronic. When you think of other progressive rock bands, what bands do that? What bands have the ability to do that?

P: Very few, if any...

What do Yes do now?

P: There are two Yes, and they also play Yes…

Steve Hackett goes out and plays Genesis. What? Tell me! Tell me a progressive band whose members are making very different music or interesting music in other genres. Who is that? That's my point is.

C: Maybe Marillion’s Steve Hogarth that you have the project with him…

Yeah, but what about what about the drummer of Marillion? Or the keyboard player? What have they done?

Do we go and play on a cruise ship? Or do we go and do progressive rock festivals that we could headline? We don't do that! We don't do the same things as other progressive rock bands

C: Not quite a lot of stuff outside Marillion I guess...

That's my point… You could not predict what we would do. And we're all doing incredibly different things outside of the group as well as becoming Porcupine Tree, when we get together, with our own sound. I think that puts us above the rest. Do we go and play on a cruise ship? Do we go play Prog Cruise ship gigs? Or do we go and do progressive rock festivals that we could headline? We don't do that! We don't do the same things as other progressive rock bands. We don't think the same way as those bands. And we don't thrive on nostalgia like those bands. We always try to do something new and different…

Well, these are just some of the things where I think we're different. We also have in the band a kind of non-musician keyboardist who doesn't play like any other progressive rock keyboardist.

I think we're different…

On the last tour we could have made so much money by doing a VIP meet and greet

P: We're glad that your roads met again with one another….

C: Another thing that makes you differ from many other bands is the fanbase that you have. There are fans who dig different periods of Porcupine Tree - there are several such groups at our website, for sure! What do you think about it? Cause another thing is that with your fans kind of argue, which is your best period. My best period of the band is from "In Absentia" to "Fear Of The Blank Planet". Pantelis likes more the previous period and there are others that like the early stuff mostly. So, what do you think about your fans and what's your favorite period of the band? I've talked about with Steven and he and picked "In Absentia"...

Our relationship with the fans is again different than most other bands. We don't have that close thing with the fans that maybe bands like Marillion do, or a lot of those bands that do "meet and greet". I mean on the last tour we could have made so much money by doing a VIP meet and greet. But, it was more important for us that the show was good and that our minds were in the right place. We're so grateful to the fans, because they've made it all happen. But it's best not to read all the forums and all the discussions, because it can get very frustrating… (laughs)

So yeah, of course, they all like their own period. Some people prefer when Chris was in the band. Some people prefer the very beginning. Some people only like the solo albums of the band, but not the rest… (laughs). Some people like the "In Absentia" period. I mean, it’s probably the strongest. Yeah, "In Absentia", "Fear Of A Blank Planet" and the new album for me are the three that are at the top.

They're where the band has peaked, that it stepped up and done something special and different. So those are my favorite three. But I also like a lot of the "Lightbulb Sun" and "Stupid Dream" stuff…

P: These are very nice rock records, with very beautiful songs…

Exactly! Yeah, I like those a lot. I mean, I don't have a favorite era… It would have to be this one, wouldn't it? Cause, otherwise, I wouldn't still be in the band.

There's an emotional side that says the tape is better. But in terms of the overall sound of the music, digital is, of course, better

P: Really, are you more of a fan of analog or digital equipment? What kind of keyboards do you mostly use in the studio and live?

I'm more a fan of analogue equipment for my own instruments. Like the synthesizers you can see [editor: Richard is in his home studio during the interview]. That's what I grew up with and I still prefer that sound. In terms of making an album and mixing and mastering and everything, well… digital is of course far better. We all did this before where we sat in a studio and we've heard two versions of the mix. And all of us preferred one version, which was digital. I know there's an emotional side that says the tape is better. And of course it's different. But in terms of the overall sound of the music, digital is, of course, better.

C: I I'd like to ask if you have any plans outside Porcupine Tree. We mentioned your collaboration with Steve Hogarth or any other project you might have in mind, like Japan for example…

I've been writing with other people. I’ve been writing with Steve Jansen from Japan and Steve Hogarth and Tim Bowness. We've got to the stage of maybe two or three tracks each in along those processes. To make an album is a big undertaking. I mean, it really takes a lot of time and creativity to get that album done. I’m more interested in working just on music. There's no rules anymore. You know, you can release EP's, you can just release one piece of music. There are no rules that you have to release certain amount of music on a certain format.

And music always finds a home. Whenever I write something, it might take a long time, but it always finds a home somewhere that is where it should be. They're all like orphans, and they all need somewhere where they're welcomed and they eventually find their home, where they're welcomed. So, one might be over with Steve Hogarth and another might be with Steve Wilson… but I don't start off writing thinking just for these people. I'm writing because I'm interested in something I'm doing. But over time it becomes obvious where that piece of music should go.

How much money is "Darks Side Of The Moon" worth? It's a piece of art, isn't it?

C: Are you an active listener as a musician, meaning that you listen to modern music/new stuff, or do you prefer to listen to the old stuff like the ones that you grew up with, the ones that influenced you the most? Or maybe both? Is this a process that still influences you as a musician when you're writing? Where do you stand as an artist?

Yeah, I listen to both. I'm always interested to hear new things and I'm lucky that a lot of people will write to me "have you heard this? Have you heard that?". And it's easy to quickly hear these things now. That is great. And there's always good stuff around.

I still like listening to the same old albums that I've always loved. I still get so much pleasure. And I mostly listen while I'm driving. That's when I enjoy music the most. It’s actually in the car. Because when I'm at home, I'm usually involved in my own stuff or there's other things to do. But, the car is dead time, so you can fill it with all this music.

To me, it's still amazing that you can go and buy this music from the 70s. 70s is my period, the one I love and has all these amazing, classic albums. People now want everything for free. But for me, it's incredible that I can go and buy a new Joni Mitchell album or a Neil Young album or a Pink Floyd album and it only will cost me £10. I mean, that's like buying a work of art for 10 pounds. But people think that's too much money. They want these things for free…

I mean, how much money is "Darks Side Of The Moon" worth? It's a piece of art, isn't it? I can't believe that like I'll get the vinyl for like £20. People think I'm mad to spend that money.

I still will want to sit down and listen to a piece of music and it's very important to me. But I don't think future generations will see that in the same way…

C: The new generation thinks that music is just like air…

Yeah, yeah! I keep saying to my friends that we are the last generation. We are the last generation to buy albums and enjoy music on this medium and enjoy music in in the way that we did when we were children. I still will want to sit down and listen to a piece of music and it's very important to me. But I don't think future generations will see that in the same way. It's becoming something else, especially with AI as well, I think that is gonna capture everybody's imagination and they're going to go forward in this artificial way…

C: Which kind of brings us back to the "Sound Of Muzak"… This song was spot on when you wrote it and still is…

Yeah, Steven talks about it every night on stage with this song…

C: Now, from the new music that you heard - and since we are in the period that we all make lists with favorites and stuff - did you hear anything that came out in 2023 and really stood out for you?

I heard something in the Sony offices the other day, while we were signing the live albums. It was this band called Moin. They’re really-really good. They’re a little bit kind of electronic, kind of atmospheric, with a Radiohead kind of vibe. A little bit Aphex Twin. It was really good…

P: Sounds interesting… We'll check them out.

I love Taylor Swift's album "Folklore". That's a really great singer-songwriter, album. It's not this year, but it's fairly recent. That's really-really cool.

Generally, my favorite band is Radiohead. If there was one band that I could have joined, then that would have been my choice.

P: Radiohead have the specialty that they are the same persons since 1985...

Exactly! Exactly! And that's why it works so well...

C: Richard, we would like to thank you very, very much. It was a really pleasure to have you. We enjoyed the conversation very much. You're always welcome here and we hope that the next time we'll see in person here in Greece. Maybe if Porcupine Tree could play in the Herodion, under the Acropolis that would be very cool…

Yeah! We really hope to make that happen.