Jim Grey: "I didn't even know if I emotionally or creatively had anything to say anymore"

It's a conversation that for some is self-evident, and for others it's too early to produce any firm conclusions. However, here at the Rocking.gr team we've come to accept that Caligula's Horse is one of the most talented and interesting bands in the modern progressive metal scene, and they've proven it time and time again with an impressive string of albums. We may not agree on the details, but one thing is for sure, their latest album, "Charcoal Grace", is another worthy work that convinces any interested person where to look for quality prog in 2024. So, on the occasion of their release that kicks off the new year strong, Christos Karadimitris took the opportunity to interview one of the most charismatic vocalists of his generation, Jim Grey, in an in-depth conversation about the pandemic, "Rise Radiant" released at the beginning of the lockdown, and the dynamic return of Caligula's Horse to the forefront with an album that captures the existential crisis on a personal and collective level, as you watch the future crumble... Oh, and for a moment, we are joined by an arthropod friend from above

Interview questions, editing and transcription by: Chris Karadimitris & Manos Kornilakis-Orfanoudakis

Good day, Chris.

Hello Jim! How are you doing?

Good. How are you?

I'm good too, I'm fine! First of all, thank you for making this exception and making it on a Saturday. I really appreciate it…

Hey, no worries!

Time zones and work obligations are making it difficult.

Man, it sucks. We're in the worst possible location. It's the best possible country in the worst possible location.

You know better about it. I have a very far image of Australia, mainly through the bands that I adore down there. And everything's nice from that far away. I see you have a good scene, so it must be good there. It doesn't make any sense, really...

Well, I mean maybe it's the opposite. Maybe it sucks so bad down here that we're just inspired to create music on the back of it being so hard! (laughs) No, it's great. We love it. It's a good country. Move here.

Well, that would be a big leap I'd have to make. But you never know…

Never say never…

There are two main reasons I'm even more happy to talk with you. Firstly, because I really love and admire all your works with Caligula's Horse - and the other bands you've been in - so it's always a pleasure, but even more because I think that the new album that's coming out is fantastic. So, it gives me an extra motivation to have the chance to talk about it and learn more stuff about it.

Awesome! Thank you!

This album is like a catharsis. It's like an expulsion of all the bad feelings and bad experiences from the pandemic and everything we went through

You're coming back with your new album with Caligula's Horse, almost four years after the excellent "Rise Radiant". Thinking that "Rise Radiant" was released at the beginning of the pandemic and you didn't have the chance to support it fully and properly, it's like a return to normality with this album. Does it feel it that way?

Interestingly, it's a mix of yes and no. Because it feels amazing to be back and to be proving to ourselves again that we can do this after such a long time. It was kind of a moment of whether or not we could actually do it anymore. So, that feels like a return to normal.

But the content of the album definitely isn't! Because it's such an emotional departure from what we've been doing for the last few albums. And because it's like a catharsis. It's like an expulsion of all the bad feelings and bad experiences from the pandemic and everything we went through. It does feel like a diversion, and I have no idea where we're going to go next. But personally, I can just say right now, after getting all of that out and once we've shared this album, I am inspired to write more positive stuff again.

So, yeah, yes and no. It's great to be back…

We accidentally released an album that was all about positivity and self-empowerment and overcoming and stuff at a time when people needed to hear it

Yeah, it is! You know, I had the chance to speak with Dale back then when "Rise Radiant" was released, and he told me something really nice, that it was an honor having the chance to release an album in such difficult times and help people through it. And I'm here to confirm that, because "Rise Radiant" personally helped me a lot back then. But, apart from that, do you think it was wise after all to release it during that time? Because I have a feeling that it's your masterpiece and it could have been better received, if it wasn't for that condition.

First of all, I'm really glad that the album actually did help you in some way. Second of all, I was talking about this with someone else recently, and that was where I landed, because you're probably right… I mean, we were escalating as a band, things were going really well, we had this album that we were really proud of, "Rise Radiant", and we're about to go tour the world on it, and then everything died and fell apart with the pandemic. It definitely would have been bigger, but I don't know if it would have been more individually impactful for people. So, it's like maybe on a global scale it would have been bigger, but for the purposes of the individual I think it was more important, because of the timing of it.

The number of times I've had people just like you said now, that during the pandemic they went through some super hard times and "Rise Radiant" was where they found our music. And it really helped them through it all. So yeah, I think it was a really successful album on the back of that alone, on the fact of the individual positivity and the individual help that it provided people during that time. Because we accidentally released an album that was all about positivity and self-empowerment and overcoming and stuff at a time when people needed to hear it. So yeah, it would have been, but it might not have kept as many people alive, I think.

You know, it vividly came to my memory that it was that time that we had to send a text message and put a number for the reason we go outside our home. I don't know if you had this as well in Australia…

Umm, we had fairly similar stuff. We had to register wherever we were and when we went...

So, I remember doing that, sending the number that I was going for like exercise, putting my headphones on and listening to the last two tracks of the album, "Autumn" and "The Ascend". They really helped me get through it in a big way. So, I feel I always have to pay my respect to you for that and highlight its importance.

That's beautiful, man.

How much have things changed for you in the in-between? One major change is that Adrian left the band. What really motivated you to continue as a four-piece? Has this affected your song-writing at all? Cause it's mostly Sam and you that write the music, right?

That's usually the case. On "Charcoal Grace" we did write the bulk of it, but at the same time we've never had as much collaboration with the other members of the band as we have on "Charcoal Grace". For the very first time - it might be "The World Breathes With Me", off the top of my head… I'll have to look it up - I think there is at least one song on this album that has everyone on as a songwriting credit. That's never happened before. Dale's had some amazing contributions, Josh has had some amazing contributions. It's been a really collaborative effort, which has been really exciting and I hope that it continues, because it definitely brought some different tastes and flavors to the emotion of the album, as well as sonically…

(Looks up) Oh, there is a spider on my roof. It's fine, he's just taking care of some stuff. It's no big deal. What the fuck was I saying before I got distracted by a spider?

We realized after Adrian left the band is that the four of us are tighter and more locked in with each other than we ever have been, both personally and musically speaking

You were talking about the collaborative spirit that you had on this album…

Oh, yeah, yeah! What we realized after Adrian left the band is that the four of us are tighter and more locked in with each other than we ever have been, both personally and musically speaking. And we didn't want to rock that boat. We didn't want to go like "Hey, let's introduce a new person. Let's keep this thing rolling". We just went like "let's try this as a four piece". And it works perfectly fine in terms of the live context. And also, it means that the dynamic when we're on tour etc., is entirely supportive. Like, we've gone through some really hard touring this year and the dynamic's great. So that's what kept us there. And it's great to have all these voices musically and to be around these guys now. So yeah, definitely the right decision as far as that's concerned.

But, as for other stuff that's different… We're all much older now… (laughs). We're all a little bit saltier now… And again, some of the content on "Charcoal Grace" is on the back of a lot of the faith that we lost in humanity. And a lot of the loss of ourselves and the loss of our creative voice· that kind of thing is reflected in the album a lot. And I'm happy to say that some of those feelings are subsiding afterwards, obviously, but yeah, that was a fundamental change, and I was concerned for a while there that I may not be able to return to a place where I could be positive. Because that guy was gone now. So, a lot of change. And I'm sure that's globally, that's for everybody. Everybody went through some fundamental change.

It's true. What's the case with the live appearances? Are you going to have another guitarist, maybe even a keyboardist? Cause keyboards start to play more and more a crucial role on some parts of your songs. How do you plan to deal with it?

I would say that they don't. I think that there are affectations and instrumentation throughout the album that are kind of orchestral. I mean, we have had a bunch of string players and some woodwind and flute on the new album as well, and all of those - apart from maybe one or two highlighted flute parts - are really just supporting roles. And the same goes for synth and key parts and things like that, that we've had in the past as well. When they have stood out like, for example, in the beginning of "Salt" from "Rise Radiant". And we play that live, Sam plays the opening piano line. So, it's like the there is no reason for a keyboardist in the band. And in the four piece it works just fine. We don't entirely rely on things like backing tracks and samples, they are there live to fill out that sound of the orchestra and stuff that would be missing, because of course we've only got eight hands between us, but it works really well in the end.

And the other factor is - and this is something that we realized after the fact, when we started booking tours internationally again - that "oh yeah, we don't have to pay for another fucking flight from Australia"… (laughs) "That's nice. That's a huge relief. Thank you for that one less visa! One less flight! Yum, Yum, Yum." I love that…

We're losing parts of each other to the conflict that we're all in, when we should all be uniting

I get it. So going to "Charcoal Grace", let's start from the cover of the album. Each and every album cover you've had, differs significantly to the rest. You're not like other bands who aim at a stylistic consistency, and now "Charcoal Grace" is once again very different, perhaps the darkest and most twisted (literally and figuratively) album cover you ever had. Can you tell us about the thought process behind it?

Well, as with every one of our albums, we wanted to work with an original artist and not really tell them what to do. So, we would find someone that we really respect or we really admire their work and come to them with the brief of the album's concept and content and lyrics. And sometimes demos as well, where they're available. And go like "this is stuff from you that we love. We love your work" and then let them come to us with a draft and go "hey". We're working with an artist called Chris Pannetier this time and he is absolutely outrageously talented and versatile. We also wanted it to be a canvas painting. We wanted it to be like something that actually exists, and it is hand painted. It's not a digital piece of art at all. Watching that come to life gradually as he was finishing, it was fascinating. And again, it's incredible always to be able to take themes and ideas that I've had just cooking away up, and see them manifest in a way that I couldn't have ever pictured myself.

So, we took to Chris some parts of the theme… He has had a number of works in the past that really struck me, from my interpretation being like humanity but with pieces missing. You know, feeling like there's a hole in something and you can't pick what's quite wrong with it, that kind of thing. It's a really exciting, slightly spooky art style. When I took that theme to him, he really ran with it because of course that matches a lot of what we were talking about with "Charcoal Grace", where it's like humanity with pieces missing, where it's just like we're losing parts of ourselves to our selfishness and to our self-righteousness and obsessions. And then, we're losing parts of each other to the conflict that we're all in, when we should all be uniting and have taken this opportunity to be the one time we're going to be a totally united force, you know? So yeah, I think he reflected that beautifully in the album art. And yet again, it's another striking piece that I never would have thought of myself.

We're watching the world's dissolve around us in this voyeuristic way

All right. Now I think that the next question is one I guess you get too often and it's regarding the title of the album. What's the idea behind "Charcoal Grace"?

"Charcoal Grace" was an early working title. It was just a phrase that came to me when I was thinking about themes that I was writing a lot. I don't consistently sit down and write poetry so to speak or lyrics ahead of writing a song, but sometimes little tiny bits and pieces will come to me when I'm about to fall asleep and they keep me awake and I have to go write them down. A couple of these themes I was picking at them and going like "well, what are the themes that I'm writing here?", and predominantly it was things about silence and loss. Thinking about that now…

(looks up again) …there is a bug… like, the spider is not doing his job now. Fantastic! Come on, man! He's being lazy… (laughs)

Anyway… so, the thinking about the themes being silence and loss primarily, those two being alluring in a way, this is where I landed on… we're in this hellish pit and we're attracted to it in a way like, instead of us moving on and trying to just focus on our own little positivity, we're watching the world's dissolve around us in this voyeuristic way. Anyway, the theme of silence kept coming back in and I was trying to think of a way of describing the allure and fear and the darkness of silence, at the same time and its beauty, and what I landed on was "Charcoal Grace". I was very pleased with myself! (laughs)

I sent it to the guys fairly early on, like "It's just this, it is a phrase, it's gonna be logged away for use later, but I would love to put it forward as a working title". Of course, we never decide anything that early, because the minute you shoehorn yourself into an idea, you can't escape it. You end up too far down in a rabbit hole and you can't find your way back out, if you get stuck with a title or an idea that you've thought of and made sacrosanct early on. But "Charcoal Grace" really stuck because it's just a beautiful little pair of words.

Yeah, it is. It is different so it stands out and sticks with you, even though you need to get the context and realize what it really means…

Yeah, it's evocative.

We'll get there as I have a couple of questions regarding the lyrics of the album. But, let's start with the songs. To say that the album starts off impressively would be an understatement, as "The World Breathes With Me" is an amazing opener and such a great track. But there is always the obvious question: is it a good idea to start an album with a ten-minute track like this?

No! (laughs)

It depends on who you are I guess. Contextually, it makes sense, because "The World Breathes With Me" almost feels like an overture of sorts, where it captures the mission statement of the album sonically, as well as lyrically and emotionally. It's a big bird's eye view of the themes we discuss throughout the album. This is literally a journey from start to finish of that song. It's a journey of going from despondence and complete lack of faith in humanity and loss of everything, to then realizing the selfishness that I'm experiencing, and how that's actually me mirroring what I'm judging other people for. And then finding a reconnection with people through breath at the end of the song as well.

So, it's the whole journey of the pandemic on a macro sense. That's laid out in the table. And again, it ends brightly with the celebration of our inevitable unity and the power that we have, and the connection to the world that we have, and the fact that the world is in us as much as we are in it. So, that big journey, that ten minutes, really sets you up for where you're going to go throughout the album. Because there's only really two songs that are I suppose, single-y sounding. I mean, short, punchy songs. You've got "Golem" and you've got "The Stormchaser". And the rest of it is these protracted journeys that are all part of themes and stories and things like that.

It's more reflective of the album than, say, starting with something like "Golem". It would have been fun… But then it would have been like, "hey, here's this punchy song, and then this fucking dark, emotional prog journey for the rest of the album". You'd be like "where the fuck did that come from?"

So, usually no. But in this case, I feel yes.

If anyone knows what Caligula's Horse stand for as a band and your artistic statements, then there's no problem with that being ten minutes or even longer…

I agree…

Moving on, "Golem" I guess it must have been the obvious choice for the first single just because the riff is so goddam' tasty, man…

Yeah! (laughs)

It's somehow a song that you'd expect from Caligula's Horse, but then it's different, isn't it? So, what makes it stand out in comparison to previous singles you've put out in the past?

I think it's a lot more aggressive. There's a lot more bite in it than other stuff that we've done, even in songs like say "Turntail" or even "Rust", where there is an aggression to those. This is a lot more cynical for the most part, thematically and lyrically. That's reflected in the tone of the vocal delivery and really going for that very deliberately groovy guitar riff. It's sort of a reflection of that too. This is where the addition of Dale's musical voice and Josh's musical voice on this track have made a difference. Because, if you're listening to the verses of "Golem", where there's that just constant barrage of staccato guitar from Sam and me sitting right on top of the beat, then you've got Josh and Dale just sitting on this really groovy right behind the beat, sort of offbeat, spanky thing that they're doing. And, again, this groove underneath something that is quite static leads to this agitated feeling, an underlying feel of cynicism and bitterness. I think sonically, it really does capture the thing.

So, it definitely reflects those things I was talking about before. This is darker and has a more angry approach to it. I've never done any harsh vocals before. This was the first time I've ever done a growl, so to speak. It was fun to learn and very hard. I'm still not very good at it… (laughs) It's a bit different in a lot of ways.

All right. Moving on, the next four songs are parts of the title track, right?

Yes, indeed!

We had in the back of our minds that doing a side length song would be really fun. You know, doing a twenty plus minute long song...

So, did you consider releasing the main epic of the album as one lengthy track, like classic rock bands used to do or was always supposed to be in four distinctive parts?

Good question, by the way… The decision to make it four parts was later on during the writing process. Αt one of the first brainstorms we had as a group, we were going "Hey, what do we want to do for this album?" or "What's an adventure we want to go on creatively?" We had in the back of our minds that doing a side length song would be really fun. You know, doing a twenty plus minute long song… I mean, we've done "Graves", which is pushing fifteen minutes, but we've never really gone the whole big old twenty four-minute one side of a record. Let's fucking go! We've never really done it before, so we toyed with the idea of doing that…

And then themes and ideas started to come together for "Charcoal Grace", which became the "Charcoal Gray Suite". And we realized that it would be better in telling this story isolated into these four movements, so that each of those movements could have its own distinct musical and lyrical voice, so to speak. Basically, if you take that journey, it is one big, long song, it'll run from one track to the other. But in those chapters, which are divided up into the four parts, there is a totally different musical approach to each one, as it reflects the journey and the characters, the moments that the characters experience during that journey. And sometimes jumps between voices as well. So, it's like "This is coming from this character, so it has this tone, this one less so".

So, we did start writing as a big song like "let's see where this venture makes" and then went like "No. You know what? This is actually going to be much stronger as a four-chapter suite".

You can't just live in the mire of the world that you used to know [...] You have to accept where you're at and make the best of it and try to move on

Interesting. I remember watching an interview where you explained in detail the many vocal layering you did for "The Ascend". I'm glad that it becomes so apparent with "Sails" as well, as it has some of my favorite vocal lines in the whole album. Which song was the most demanding to write vocal lines to, though?

The hardest to write vocals for? Oh, really interesting! I'm going to say that the easiest was "The Stormchaser". I'll start there. That one was with Dale and Sam, I'll tell you in a minute in detail… but yeah, that one was definitely the easiest…

Oh man, that's a really hard question. I think probably Part Four of "Charcoal Grace", "Give Me Hell" has some really dark and thick metal stuff in there and I was trying to find a place for my voice in it. Generally, I don't sing very low. I tend to float and belt quite high or float my full center. Finding a lower, closer to my actual speaking voice, approach to that song was where I ended up, because I found it very challenging to place myself in there. And I'm really happy with how that verse came through because it is really rich and dark sounding stuff as well. But that was probably the hardest. A couple of bits in "Mute" too, no doubt.

"Sails" is interesting. I think it's placed in such a way that after the twenty four-minute onslaught that is the sadness of "Charcoal Grace", and how it ends very badly and in a very dark place, it is a gentle salve. Interestingly, lyrically it is still quite dark and sad, but in a more accepting and slightly uplifting way, I guess. In that we are stuck, but you can't fight that. You can't just live in the mire of the world that you used to know and go "I wish you things were better. I wish that was the way that it was". You have to accept where you're at and make the best of it and try to move on. And that's the theme of that. And again, it's sad. Because it's like we did have to accept that and it was completely outside of our control, but these things happened. It is a nice little thing. It also it has lyrical themes from "Charcoal Grace" and musical themes from "The Stormchaser", so it does the transition between the one and the other.

Also, very interesting. Now, the whole of "The Stormchaser" is amazing, one of the best songs you've written...

Well, thank you!

Especially the last part is so heavy on emotion, still very ethereal, with the guitar playing those high pitched harpisms. Did you realize you had hit gold when you completed the composition?

It was one of those ones… Do you write music? Are you a creative guy?

I play a little bit of guitar.

Alright, do you write anything? Do you fiddle around writing music?

I am going to do this. I am going to have my Michael Jackson's "Earth Song" moment

Nah… I've given myself to music journalism… (laughs)

Yeah. OK… (laughs) Well, I just didn't want to explain it to you if you already knew… By now, we're really practiced and diligent with songwriting, like, I'm able to sit down and work with what Sam's given me and go like "I'm spending time doing this, because I know I'm gonna get something out of it", whereas previously, when I was younger, I would wait for the muse darling… and if it didn't strike, then I wouldn't do anything… Very unprofessional…

But when it does strike, when you hear something, you know it. And for me it was the verse and chorus structure that Dale and Sam had worked on together for "The Stormchacer". I was actually away on holiday for my wedding anniversary and I ended up staying up all night because I just heard it. I was listening in bed on my headphones, going like fuck… The whole verse and chorus structure came to me. And I had to just write it out. I wrote all the lyrics for it that night. I wrote all the structure of it that night for the melodies and the lyrics. So, when it strikes, it strikes hot, and I was so happy that it did.

When we reached right on the outro, this huge impactful spot that you mentioned before, I was so pleased and so proud to be able to do something I've never done before. I'm a huge Michael Jackson fan and one of his hidden gems is "Earth Song". Some people are turned off by it, because it is a bit cheesy in the beginning and the theme is a bit one of his "let's save the world things" again. But the ending is so angry and so big. Ιt's one of his most huge vocal performances ever. I very rarely get through that song without tears. I had that in my head as I was writing. I'm like "OK, cool. I am going to do this. I am going to have my "Earth Song" moment and I'm going to really ride the wave of this through, and get it as big as we possibly can and as emotional as we possibly can by the outro". So, yeah, when we finished that one, I was breathless in the studio going "Holy Shit!"… (laughs)

The guitar work on the album is once again seminal, but especially on "Mute", it sounds as if all hell broke loose. There's a wide palette of tricks, some very heavy, some very mellow. How challenging was it to write a song like this? It's your second largest composition after "Graves", too… If we don't consider "Charcoal Grace" as one piece obviously… Also what about the flute? Is it a nod to your progressive rock roots?

(laughs) It's just a nice instrument. It's just nice… And Sophie (Christensen) is a real talent. She helped with all of the instrumentation, all of the arrangements for the orchestra and stuff like that. She's amazing! She actually plays in a band called Valhalore, who are good friends of ours. They're kind of a folk/power band, which is not done very often in Australia. And when it is, it's not done as well, as they do it. It was great to have her on board.

"Mute" is really important to me. Particularly, because it's signing off the album and we wanted to sign off with something that was ultimately impactful, but also give someone a little bit of hope as well. Again, after such a dark album it was nice to be able to end on an acceptance tone, like a "hey, we're doing OK" tone. We've got a lot of work to do to save what we have, but let's celebrate what we have. So, yeah, it was really challenging to write a lot vocally because of how just intense it is instrumentally, but also because of how attached I was to the message of the song and the journey and the story of the song. I feel that's what drove that. So, when you go from those very soft, mournful sounding verses into a really melancholic chorus and then all of a sudden acknowledging that everything fell apart and then that's when the song just rifts itself to death, it just falls apart… the journey of that is really exciting. I do hope we end up putting that one in the setlist. I don't know if we will, but if we do, I am so looking forward to playing that live. It's going to be insanely challenging and a bit scary, but at the same time if we are able to play that live, I'm looking forward to breathing life into that thing.

At the peak of the pandemic, realizing that even if I could get up on stage and perform right now, I didn't even know if I emotionally or creatively have anything to say anymore

It would be amazing, for sure. Now, don't take this personally, but your voice is one of the strongest assets of your sound, but I don't think we've ever heard it as prominently as at the intro of "Mute" -"Inertia..." aside, as that was more of a theatrical monologue. That acapella section caught me off guard, but was very empowering to hear! How was the idea around this part developed?

It was one of the rare times where I've written something musically alone and just going like "I have this idea, let's see if we can put this somewhere". Because, most often, I'm a creature of stimulus response. Sam and I will start working, he'll have a canvas that he'll put down his idea and then we'll work on it together. That also happened with "Vigil". That one was me sitting at home with a guitar and writing some stuff, and then Sam and I took it and ran with it afterwards. It very rarely happens…

But this one, again, was really important, because I was trying to capture what it felt like, at the peak of the pandemic, realizing that even if I could get up on stage and perform right now, I didn't even know if I emotionally or creatively have anything to say anymore. And for someone who has spent so much in this job… I've spent twenty years doing this. When I first started playing in pubs and stuff, I wasn't allowed to be there, I was too young. I was underage, so they'd sneak me in through the back and I played the show. So, I've been doing this for as long as I can remember. And the very idea that it's just like "Nah, I'm tapped out. I got nothing left creatively to say" is like a pretty freaking dark experience to have. And that was coupled as well, at a time where I actually did physically lose my voice. I had a lot of trouble and I'm working on it gradually and I had a procedure done on my voice, medically I was put under and they did some stuff to try and get me back on my feet as well. So, all of that is reflected in that interesting sequence of "Mute".

And I thought that it was important that it was acapella, because it's just like a voice basically calling out from the top of the mountain to no one in particular, going "I did these things… I made mountains and now I've got no voice. I've reached the top of the mountain, but I've got no voice to speak and nothing left to say". And, of course, that's why we wanted to turn that theme at the very end of the song to something positive and say that we've got everything to save rather than nothing left to say.

Some people are allowed to be outside because of what we did. And they're proud of themselves. That hypocrisy killed me!

As it was mentioned before, you released your previous album during the pandemic, and now the lyrics of "Charcoal Grace" deal a lot with this period. But, which aspects of your experience, or the collective experience, did you wanted to highlight with the lyrics? And what other themes do you also tackle?

I think that "The Stormchaser" is the one that's the most specific. Everything else… like, "Mute" is a very big picture, one with some very close personal themes. As I was saying, based on our own individual experience "The World Breathes With Me" is a very big picture. "Golem" is a little bit more personal, but "The Stormchaser" is a very angry song. And it's very pointed.

I keep talking about this loss of faith in humanity and "The Stormchaser" lays out why. Because of some people that… You know who I'm talking about… Like, fucking anti-vaccine types, people who are hoarding toilet paper, people who are going nuts and resisting and fighting in the streets and stuff like that. And then you still see them now, reaping the benefits of the struggles that we all had. We all did the right thing, we engaged in the lockdowns, we got vaccinated, we were a huge part of bringing the case numbers down and bringing us to a position where it's like "hey, we can do this again". We have the luxury and the privilege of being able to walk out into the street, spend time and speak with each other, go to play rock shows to hundreds if not thousands of people, and experience all that we've lost… You know, that is on our backs! On the hard work that we did. And what the scientists and everyone did to make that happen.

And then you see these people out protesting still, and they're the ones that didn't get vaccinated and they didn't do the right thing and they're reaping the benefit. They're allowed to be outside because of what we did. And they're proud of themselves. That hypocrisy killed me! It is so infuriating to see it… especially when a lot of these people are either hippie types or religious types and stuff like that, who are meant to be all about peace and love and supporting each other. It just kills me, dude. So "The Stormchaser" was a direct result of how angry I was. And still am about. That's a very specific theme.

People had expectations on artists that were higher than other people during the pandemic

I'm with you. I'm with you in that matter.

Yeah, hell yeah. It's probably gonna piss a few people off. I don't give a shit... Fortunately for me.

You shouldn't…

"Golem" is another one that's fairly pointed. It was more regarding the way that people had expectations on artists that were higher than other people during the pandemic. I've talked about it before releasing the single, but it was basically people were saying like "Oh, we're in hell, this is awful. But I can't wait to hear what my favorite artists do next, because it's gonna be the best stuff ever. They're gonna be so inspired". And I'm sitting here with shattered pieces of my future in my hands, going like "What? What am I supposed to do with this? How am I supposed to be able to handle this better than you? I got nothing." And that hurt.

Then I had the realization later, of course, that we were both reaching for the same thing, and that was some acceptance and comfort. And the way that they were searching for it was through what their favorite artists could provide, because it's what they've leaned on their entire lives. And that's fine. So "Golem" is about my frustration with that. And then of course, coming to peace with that.

I love to hear how my people have affected other people or how they've reflected other people's emotions and in ways that I couldn't have predicted

Here's something I find very interesting. One thing I really like about your lyrics is that they intrigue me in a good way when I read them out of context. Ok, maybe I struggle to realize what they're talking about, but even then I find something nice and interesting in them. But, when I get the context and all the back story, it makes me even more sense and it makes it even better. Cause, it's a labor of love you put in your lyrics. So, it takes a while, but it really gives an added value to your music. So that's something I really appreciate.

Oh, thank you. That's great to hear actually, because that is what I love to hear… how they've affected other people or how they've reflected other people's emotions and in ways that I couldn't have predicted. That's always great.

When we are writing odd time signatures, it never really feels like it's to fuck with you. It always has a purpose

Now, one other thing I wanted to ask, has once again something to do with your vocal lines and your vocal approach. As a band you seem to have very complex rhythm sections, very bouncy and energetic. So, how do you end up with such motifs for your songs? And how challenging is it for you to come up with so good vocal lines on such complex time signatures? Do you even get pissed at Sam sometimes thinking "come on dude, write something easier"…

(laughs) No… The way that I feel Sam, and particularly Josh with his voice in the music at the moment as well, write is that when there are writing odd time signatures, it never really feels like it's to fuck with you. It always has a purpose. We might be dropping a beat, or something off kilter here, or something super syncopated, but it's always part of a whole. One of the more challenging things, but also one of the most enjoyable experiences that I have writing vocal lines over that, is finding hit points of where I want to join in, what rhythmic parts I want to highlight. And so, I'm working around it, I'm creating my shapes over the top, but then I'm joining the band for that. It helps to ground it in a way, and it means that the vocal line and the hook sits really comfortably and smoothly over the top of something that might be a little bit off kilter. But I never feel an odd time signature with what Sam puts together feels out of place.

I was studying ancient Greek and Latin, and I have a lot of love for the history and the mythology in particular of that whole region

Let's end with the one question that everyone would ask me about if I didn't make it to you… So, will you come to Greece and when?

(laughs) Oh, man, it's such a mission to get there! I really want to... For a long time, before I became a dad and I had more time, I was studying ancient history and classical languages, and I was learning ancient Greek and Latin, and I have a lot of love for the history and the mythology in particular of that whole region. We haven't really been able to get there, so I would love to tour Greece. It's definitely on my list and I can't wait to make it happen. But quite frankly, I just want to go there on holiday and just let it go, man.

You could combine it maybe! Time is over, so I wanna thank you so much for this interview. It was great. I appreciate you not just for your music, but also your ethos as an artist, so thank you very much for your time. Hope to see you in person somewhere around Europe or anywhere else playing live…

I hope so too, Chris! Thanks, man. I really appreciate the chat.