Zeal & Ardor: "People expect from us to be surprised"

It all started as a reaction to a shitpost on the internet, but somehow a few years and three albums later, Magnuel Gagneux's solo project, Zeal & Ardor are now considered one of the most up and coming powerhouses in metal music. Their unique combination of gospel and extreme metal brought them a distinguished sound and the critical acclaim of their third, self-titled album boosted the hype even more, making the anticipation for their next move even bigger.

Now, as "Greif" is about to be unleashed to the world we got Magnuel to talk to us about its different direction and the artistic honesty behind such a risky move. Being in a good mood he let us know all we needed to know about the band's fourth studio album and the changes it brings. And, of course, he had one thing to remember from when Zeal & Ardor visited Athens seven years ago, as he promised to try and come back…

You're about to release your new record, called "Greif", in the next couple of weeks and it's been a hell of a ride so far, considering how this band has started as a solo project and how it has evolved. So how does it feel to be in the situation that you are right now?

It's bizarre! You know, everything that has happened to us is a surprise. I don't know... Like there's no way to rationalize musical success, because it's so aleatoric. So all that I can do is be appreciative and be happy… (laughs) It's not a very metal answer, but yeah, that's what it is… (laughs)

I appreciate non-metal answers… (laughs)

That's good… (laughs)

You said bizarre… and I do not have a very positive feeling for the word bizarre. Is there something that is not positive? Or bizarre is only positive?

I meant that's surprising more than bizarre maybe… Yeah.

OK, surprising then! So, if I'm not mistaken, it's been quite some times since you have written the songs and finished recording the new album. In the meantime, you have been playing in festivals a lot and I have been wondering has it been frustrating to wait for so long the release your new music?

Always, yeah! Because, when you write a song it's like fresh and exciting. And then you record it properly in the studio. And then, like the honeymoon is over. And then all you can do is wait for people's reactions. And it's like a purgatory a little bit. It's quite frustrating… (laughs)

So, the new songs will be new to us when they come out, but they will be maybe a bit old for you…

Oh yes! That sounds about right… (laughs)

The previous album was just a very heavy record that just worked well for metal audiences

All your albums have been well received, but I think that your last album made a bigger impact on a larger scale and to more people. Why do you think that this happened? Also, have you noticed any significant changes? Are there any significant changes in Zeal & Ardor for the new album?

Well, with the last one, I think it was just a very heavy record and I think that's it just worked well for metal audiences. With this one, it's not very metal... (laughs)

Maybe we made a mistake, but it's more honest to what we are

True! It's not!

So, maybe we made a mistake, but it's more honest to what we are. Because, it would be easy to do another heavy record and just be that band forever. But it would be forced. And if this album is something it's not… it's not forced.

I have a question about the change of style a bit later. So, did the success of the self-titled album affect the way that you approached to the songwriting process for the new album?

Kind of, yeah! In a negative polarity way! Because we tried to distance ourselves a little bit… or I tried… Because it would be easy to do that sort of album again. And I think it would be maybe satisfying for some people, but for us creatively it would be boring… (laughs). So, for better or worse, it's different and we're happy with it.

There is a significant change in "Greif"... Is it pronounced …. Graif?

Yes!

In the end, it's my job and if people don't like it, it's gonna be a problem...

You can still say that it's Zeal & Ardor, but it's different also in a way. Given the fact that most bands struggle - sometimes throughout their whole career - to have a trademark and recognizable sound in terms of musical industry, it's a bit surprising and maybe risky, that you seem to take a different approach and not just build around the sound you've developed up to now, the mix of gospel and metal. I admire this mindset, but did it worry you or any anyone around you?

Of course! I mean, I can act as cool and be like ambivalent. But in the end, it's my job and if people don't like it, it's gonna be a problem... (laughs). But, also, at the same time we already wrote that album, and it would be so creatively bankrupt to do it again. And I think this is for our creativity, the best move. So, we'll see…

I am probably not the best bass player in Zeal & Ardor and that's a good thing…

Ok! Now, for the very first time, this album is not a one-man show. The other members of the band recorded their own instruments and it was the first time that you worked like this as a band. Was there anything that surprised you in this process? What were the pros and cons?

I was really afraid initially, because I thought I will lose control and it will be more complicated. But as soon as they were in the studio it was clear that they are better at what they do. I am probably not the best bass player in Zeal & Ardor and that's a good thing… (laughs)

For some reason, I was really worried about this, but yeah… It's a thousand little moments that are just adding the quality that I couldn't have done.

So, at first it felt a bit frightening, but then it felt very natural to work like this in the studio?

Absolutely!

Zeal & Ardor is at its best when we play live and that is because of the other people

And does this indicate that slowly and steadily Zeal & Ardor have grown more to a band than a solo project, and that you feel safer now to share things and to delegate?

Definitely! Because, for me, Zeal & Ardor is at its best when we play live and that is because of the other people. So, it makes sense to have them be fundamentally included.

This is probably like the saddest and the most emotional record that we've done

I'm pretty sure that most people will refer to the new album as "Grief" than more than "Greif"… you know, due to the dark sound and the pessimistic tone it has. Was it kind of intentional from your side to name it like that? Did you want the people to misspell it or was it just a tribute to the local Griffin of your hometown and what it represents?

It was both! Initially, of course, it was the Griffin and then I shared it with people from the US and they were like "oh, Grief! Nice"... (laughs) And then it also dawned on me that this is probably like the saddest record that we did or the most emotional and it's just fitting. So, I don't want to correct people when they say it like that.

When I had this concept with the other albums, I could hide behind it. It was never me, per se

So it works both way! "Greif" does sounds to me as a more introvert and even melancholic record. So what are its main lyrical themes? Is there a specific concept behind it? Is it more personal this time around?

It definitely is! With the other records I made an effort not to say "me and you". It was always "us and them". This is more personal. It's smaller in many ways. And I think through that it just becomes more personal even for the listener, potentially. It's scary, because in a way, when I had this concept with the other albums, I could hide behind it. It was never me, per se. And I think this is more direct, so it's definitely more personal, yeah.

You said "smaller in many ways". What exactly does this mean? What do you mean smaller in many ways?

Well, lyrically it's not about let's say a society or a group of people. It's just personal stories. Not necessarily mine, but it's just me and you basically. So that's why…

People expect from us to be surprised

OK! Now, I can't really think of another album that had its closing track as the first single, and also it's also such a different track for you. So why was "To My Ilk" the first single?

I think people expect from us to be surprised. So, to release the softest song that we ever written was a good surprise, I think… (laughs) And then have it followed by one of the heaviest tracks…

So, that someone who has listened only to the first single will be surprised from the from the record…

I think so, yes! (laughs)

OK! I have given the record couple of listens because the company sent us the promo and the song that I loved from the very first listen is "Are You The Only One Now". First of all, if it wasn't for the extreme vocals, it's a song ready to be played on mainstream radio, as far as the music is concerned. But, mostly, I believe that there are there are some Chris Cornell vibes in your voice in that song. And I love that so much…

Never heard of them. And who is he? Never heard of him? (laughs) Yeah, but it's not even intentional… (many laughs)

It's so weird! Because when I try to sing really-really loud, I kind of sound like him! And I wish I could tell you that's intentional, but it's just how I sound. So, it's not plagiarism… It is a theft by accident… (laughs)

With Zeal & Ardor we had up until now a very specific set of emotions that we could share. And I think it's important to make more room and explore new avenues

If it's not intentional, then it's not theft. That's how your voice sounds… (laughs) He was a great vocalist and the great guy. He's also in my heart. Then again, it's not that you make happy music or anything like that, but there are songs that's like "Thrill" and "In My Shade", that one could even mention some Queens Of The Stone Age influence somewhere in there. Is that true? And how did this change of pace come for you?

Absolutely! I, obviously, love all those bands. With Zeal & Ardor we had up until now a very specific set of emotions that we could share. And I think it's important to make more room and explore new avenues. So, yeah, why not have an exciting song or a euphoric song?

That's something I like a lot about your music. You know, I have been following you from the first record. I remember a friend of mine who told us to listen to this to this record with a green cover and it was it was a blast! It was fantastic! And I like it a lot when you experiment and you put new stuff in your sound. So, I believe that I'm going to like the new record a lot. And I hope that most of the people will also do…

That's great to hear!

Yeah, because you don't play always the same thing…

Yeah, yeah…

That can be also nice, but I think that what you do is better.

We already made that album. It's my argument. You can you can listen to it again… (laughs)

Yeah! Then, "Kilonova" is also quite a different track as well, with some Tool and Nine Inch Nails vibes in it. Did I get it wrong or is that correct? And how did this track come out?

I mean, I can hear it too! But, the way that I wrote it was actually like a funk track with a lot of small guitar things. And then I distorted the guitar and it suddenly sounded like Tool... (laughs) It was another Chris Cornell situation. Like "Fuck! I guess I'm a thief now! (laughs)

Maybe that's how they make their songs… You found your recipe, maybe?

I think they think more about their music… (laughs)

I would never label myself avant-garde

People usually label you as avant-garde. That's a term that contains a lot of things… I guess you're not a fan of being called a genius, but are you comfortable being labeled as such? I don't know if you agree…It's not wrong, based on what you do in your new album as well. Do you feel comfortable about it?

I don't know… It sounds very arrogant! (laughs) Obviously! I would never label myself like that. Because, everything we do has been done before in different combinations, it's not like we are inventing anything. We're merely combining things. So, I wouldn't say avant-garde, maybe. It's a terrible word… but crossover seems kind of fitting. Maybe I don't know...

It's surely better… Less arrogant. And, you know, calling someone avant-garde is an arrogant term. It seems a bit, like it's something better, let's say...

Exactly, exactly! And I would never, never say that for us… (laughs)

I'm a musician. Why the fuck should people listen to me? I make funny sounds. That's my job

From the inception of the band you have been an artist that never hesitated to speak about social and political stuff that disturbs you and link your music to your beliefs, not necessarily in a radical way. Is this still the case for you? Because there's a lot of alarming, negative, even dystopian things going on in the world right now. So, in what ways do these things find place in your music? Do they motivate or inspire you musically?

They do! But I think, in the end of the day, I'm a musician. Like, if I say I make a rebellion song, that's not for me to decide. I can go all day and say "this is a song about blah blah blah blah blah". If it doesn't mean that to other people, it's worthless. And also I'm a musician. Why the fuck should people listen to me? I make funny sounds. That's my job. Of course, I have opinions, and of course I'm frustrated with the state of the world. But, unless I really have a reason, and unless I really have something to say, I can't not put it in there, because it it's a part of what I think and my train of thought. But, this record is, I would say less political than the other ones, because it's like more personal. It's very egocentric in many ways. It's kind of solipsistic, maybe.

Even if it's the first record that you recorded as a band, it's the most personal record.

Absolutely. And I think that's a beautiful thing!

Being a musician for me is my telos!

Yeah, that's beautiful. And do you think that being a musician is only a profession?

I mean, I can only say what it is for me, because for me it's like my telos. I can't do anything else. This is what I love to do. And I'm just in a lucky position that people like what I do. Because in in every other universe they would not like it and I would just make music for myself. So, it's not a profession. I think the profession part is secondary. I think the first part is that I want to do it. I have to do it.

And then people think that you are good at it and that's why it's it has become a profession. Because they think that you are good at it, and they connect with you

Yeah! Because I was lucky!

Lucky or good?

We'll see! We don't know! (laughs)

You cannot be unlucky and be successful, but success does not only come with luck… OK, you have to say something that's good. So I believe...

Maybe…

I don't know if musicians should be rich. I don't know if the old way is correct

So, given your ethics as a person, do you struggle to cope with the demands and the compromises of the music industry sometimes?

Oh yeah, of course! I mean… Just from our band's perspective, I had the brilliant idea that we should be six people in the band, which is not easy to find… But they have other jobs for instance…

And it's easy to look at the few bands that can make it happen, but I'm lucky enough that I can have my two-bedroom apartment and it's fine. But, you know, Tiziano, he works in a restaurant. And Mark, the singer, he has a studio. It's a very different place, but I don't know if musicians should be rich. I don't know if the old way is correct…. Maybe there's a midway. I don't think that we should have a private jet. Honestly, that would be very dumb… (laughs)

So you found your way in your own way through the music industry, let's say?

Yes, but I would wish for everyone in the band to be financially independent. Because, it's not the case yet…

Have you ever witnessed any kind of discrimination or racism in the music business? I mean, either towards yourself or any fellow musician or members of the crew?

Yeah, yeah. There's always shit like that. We live in the same world. You know how this goes...

So it's not more or less than in the rest of the world. Let's say the music business, is it more or less in the same place?

Yeah, people are people. And there's shit people everywhere and there's great people everywhere.

We were very lucky to witness you playing here back in 2017. And then never again…

(many laughs)

So I don't know if you remember this show! I was at this show and I don't think I will ever forget it. It was fantastic!

For us it was such a late show... It was amazing... (laughs)

This can also not be forgotten. You know, this promoter, he was famous for letting things go very late. I remember that there were two bands playing before you and I was really very tired because it was running late. But then when you took the stage I forgot everything. It was a fantastic show. I remember you had two singers and the sound was fantastic. It was impressive. So, do you think that we will have the chance to see that again in a club?

Yes! I can't say anything and I can't promise anything, but we are actually in looking at options to come to both Athens and Thessaloniki.

I can't promise anything because maybe COVID 2 is going to come…

OK. And we can write about that?

You can write that I'm trying to make it happen, but I can't promise anything because maybe COVID 2 is going to come… (laughs)

Let's hope not… (laughs) So, you remember that it was running late? Yeah, it was. I remember also being stunt. It was a fantastic show because I did not know how the music could be translated live. The music from the record that only one person was playing. How could it be presented live? And it was fantastic… Yeah, you did a great job…

I think that that was our seventh show ever. Like we were really nervous also…

Wow!

So, yeah, we got better I have to say… luckily... (laughs)

I remember that I did not have the time to buy the record from the merch, from the metal stand, because all the copies were gone.

Oh, well!

I bought it later, but I did not buy that the show. So people probably liked it, yeah.

It seems so…

So Manuel, that was all for me. I would like to thank you very much for the opportunity to have this interview!

Thank you!

And to wish you all the best with the new record. Hope to see you again here soon. And I believe that it's going to be great.

Thank you Pantelis. Me too!

Have a nice afternoon!

Efcharisto!