Haken: "We get to share the stage with Mastodon and Dream Theater in Greece! Sounds like the best day ever"

It's been a few months since we ended our Zoom call with Charlie Griffiths, one of the two guitarists of Haken. The reason for that conversation was the (excellent) album he released earlier this year with his solo project Tiktaalika, and the interview ended with the (cliché) wishes for when they would come to play a concert with his main band in Greece for the first time...

Fast forward about four months later, we found ourselves in the same position again to talk about Haken's first appearance in our country, which will take place as part of the Release Athens Festival and on the same day as Dream Theater and Mastodon, promising a dreamlike evening.

The always cheerful and talkative Charlie proved once again that he is first and foremost a music fan and thinks mainly as such. We talked about what to expect from their appearance here, the mindset with which they approach

their music, the songs he would recommend to someone coming into contact with Haken for the first time, the new album they are preparing, the experience of working with Mike Portnoy, and of course his love for Metallica, Dream Theater, and even Savatage.

July 23rd is a concert date that no one should miss, and everyone should be there from the start to enjoy Charlie and his awesome band...

Well, it's not been quite that long since we last talked…

No!

But it's for such a good reason that I cannot complain at all. Well, I wouldn't complain anyway…

I'm looking forward.

How are you?

I'm doing good, Although the meeting came up and said "Charlie vs. Chris"...

(laughs)

I didn't know it was like a Street Fighter…

It's like a joke. I always do it on when I'm setting zoom links for interviews...

(laughs)

And I was wondering, no one ever reacted to that. And thought maybe that's not funny. No one finds it funny. But yeah, you're the first one…

I was like, "Oh cool, we're playing Tekken or something"...

Let's see who wins. Music wins!

(laughs)

So, we can literally continue the conversation we had about a couple of months ago where we left off. We were talking about how great it would be if Haken would come to Greece at some time, right? And here we are! How does it feel?

Oh man, I'm so looking forward to it. For me personally, I've never been to Greece. Can you believe that?

Yeah. If you say so, I believe it… (laughs). I was thinking that maybe the Gods of Pangaea listened to us. They heard our prayers…

Yeah, that's what I like to think, too. It's finally coming together…

Starting from the difficulties ahead, I was wondering if "Face The Heat" is your favorite Scorpions album...

My favorite Scorpions album? Ahh, yeah… (laughs)

You play on such a wonderful day with Dream Theater and Mastodon, but you have to open up quite early, I guess. The sun will still be up, so I'd say be prepared to have your sunglasses on, your hats… and maybe some sun protection, as if you go to the beach? Yeah, no.

Wow. Honestly, I've got no idea what to expect, do you know the venue?

I’ve been there a lot of times. And I was there a couple of weeks ago. It's not exactly a festival. It's more like they have a place booked for several days. It's by the sea literally that you're going to play…

Oh, wow!

It's a very nice big stage and they have different days that they book but due to time limitations they have 3 or 4 bands in the day...

Oh wow, I'm sure.

Avenged Sevenfold played there a couple of weeks ago for the same festival. But at the time you're going to be up, I guess, at around 6:00 or 7:00 PM local time, the sun will be up in your face and you, and you're gonna stand against the sun. But it would be great.

There's no, there's no shade on stage?

Of course there is. But, I think the sun is setting down on the opposite side. Anyway, the scenery is fantastic and I think you're going to love it…

Man, yeah. I love the beach. So, I can't wait…

It's like more like a bay with yachts and boats and stuff…

So what about like historical stuff? Like Parthenon… is there anything like that?

No, not nearby the venue…

No, nothing nearby to see?

It’s not that you're going to see anything. It's not that far away, But, at the venue it's more like the beachy side of Athens, with the yachts and stuff. I think it’s cool…

I can deal with that…

It's a lovely place. You're gonna love it.

Great! I had no idea!

That’s what I’m here for… For the information… To help you be prepared for the show!

(laughs)

It's fun sometimes to be creative with the songs

Now, my first question is just because you’re gonna be the opening band, you have a limited time on stage, for your standards. And you're not exactly well known for your three minute long pop songs. So how do you plan to deal with the time that you have in your hands?

We're still kind of finalizing what we're going to play, but it's kind of fun sometimes to be creative with the songs… For example, we might do this... I don't know if it's going to be a spoiler or whatever… So, for example we did say "Puzzle Box" the first half and then we kind of segued into "Nil By Mouth" for the ending… Things like that

We get these kind of creative ideas like cutting songs down or connecting two songs together. That's kind of fun and interesting for us to do anyway. I guess things like that really. Trying to squeeze as much in as possible. And we're playing with two of the heaviest progressive bands, so we're going to have to lean on the heavier stuff a little bit more probably.

I would advise you so! Because, I think it's also a great opportunity for new listeners to get in touch with Haken’s music, to check it out and see you on stage. So, it will be a good a good decision to lean on your heavy stuff. But, I'm greedy. I'm still watching the "Liveforms" DVD and thinking that three hours is not enough. I'm thinking "Where is "The Architect"? Or other stuff…

Yeah… (laughs)

It blows me away that Metallica are just putting out this real high quality stuff every week

So, I'm not the one to tell. For me the setlist, is a puzzle box… I’m unable to solve it…

I'm the same thing with the bands I love! What blows me away is… every week it seems like Metallica… -You know, I'm a huge Metallica fan since the 80s - on their YouTube, they just putting out this real high quality stuff every week… Here's "Battery" from last week's gig… and it's like Pro shot mix that sounds amazing. I mean, I’m like "How do they do it?". That's what I'm saying. They spoil us. They're putting out hours and hours and hours of live stuff to enjoy.

One of the most incredible things about Dream Theater is that, even though a show might be like two hours or something like that, they've somehow got four hours of music memorized

Saying that, I'm thinking that you keep a tradition that is a lost art in music nowadays. Most sets nowadays are predetermined, like the same set for 30 nights in a row. You know, the pyros and the videos must all be synchronized and aligned and you get the same kind of product. Which I guess has a good side. But on the other hand you follow more the tradition of Metallica, of Dream Theater… Especially, Dream Theater built their legacy by changing setlists and giving these three hours shows. And you keep this legacy by following these traditions. It's one of your main advantages in comparison to today’s bands…

Yeah, I mean that's one of the most incredible things about Dream Theater, right? They can do that. They somehow can... On a tour, and even though a show might be like two hours or something like that, they've somehow got four hours of music memorized. So they can do that. You never know what they’re going to play.

Sadly, I know it's they've been a bit more stable recently, but they're going back to changing things up. But certainly in the old days, you never knew what the setlist was going to be. And that was always amazing. The fans really appreciate that.

Yeah. And you do that as well and I appreciate it. Because I think some people in the music business make me think that they even dislike this idea. You know, it's not good for the product. And I never understood that…

Well, I think it’s also difficult from a musician's point of view.

If someone calls and just says "Oh, can you play this song?". In reality "No, we can't"…

Yeah, of course…

Most bands can't just pull out every song they've written at the drop of a hat. You have to relearn stuff constantly. And when you're on a tour, you’re focused on those 10 or 20 songs, whatever your set list is. And then you get into this comfortable rhythm. And it's kind of difficult sometimes if someone calls and just says "Oh, can you play this song?". In reality "No, we can't"… (laughs)

"I would love to, but I guess I just can't remember it"... You have to rehearse it. And so the bands that can do that, you gotta respect their musicianship.

But you take that high road. You followed it since the beginning…

Yeah…

And that makes me think of something else. Lately an issue has come up and a discussion that many metal bands get tired of trying to make a living through their art and through the music. And even in if they’re in their peak, they quit. They can't support this anymore. And I've had discussion in the past with several musicians and the last one I remember was with Adam Wakeman, who plays with Ozzy and Black Sabbath…

Oh, I know him!

…we were talking about his band Headspace. And he brought up Haken as an example of a band that made it on their own terms. And I've heard it from other bands as well…

Alright!

We've just written the songs we wanted to write. And perhaps that resonates with people because it's more of an honest way of doing it, and we've gained fans that way

So, from your point of view, how difficult was it to play the game by your rules and not give up? And get to this situation that you are right now?

It was just really nothing we did intentionally… (laughs) I would say that every album we've made, it was created in its own bubble. We were just trying our hardest to write those songs on that album. And just trying to please ourselves more than anything. We've never really thought it… I guess, like we've never been smart enough in a way... (laughs)

"What would the audience like?"… You know, that kind of thing would be the smart way of doing it, I guess to get wider appeal. But, we've just written the songs we wanted to write. And perhaps that resonates with people because it's more of an honest way of doing it, and we've gained fans that way. I'm the same way as a fan. I want to be drawn into their world, whatever the band is. I don't want to try and guess what I want to hear. I want to show up and be drawn into their world. I think our fans have that mindset.

But we're struggling along. It's not easy yet either. We don't feel like we've kind of reached that comfortable level. It’s getting harder for every band.

Yeah, yeah. And don't forget that the territory is not easy. Maybe things have changed in comparison to some years ago regarding prog muic, but it's still a nice market...

Yes…

It needs dedicated people.

It is a niche…

We were in between Vader and Nile, up in the middle… And it was "Oh, come on!

On this upcoming show in Greece, most people will be there will for the Dream Theater, so they'll be more open to listen to your music, in case they don't know you. But what happens when you play on fests like Graspop or Hellfest where you have to squeeze your prog music into like a 40 minutes set?

Honestly, it does feel a little bit strange when we show up at some festivals… for example, we were in Brazil recently, in Sao Paulo, in a festival called Bangers. And we were in between Vader and Nile, up in the middle… And it was "Oh, come on!" (laughs)

Between two death metal bands?

Yeah! And I love death metal and heavy things. But, we're not that kind of heavy. So, yeah, you do have to kind of almost just grin and bear it sometimes… (laughs). Because every band is offering their own unique take on music. That's what you gotta remember. And I think it's cool for the audience, first of all, not to hear the same kind of thing over and over again. I love death metal, but I don't want to hear five death metal bands in a row. Let's hear some melody in mixing.

I get it. Even though I appreciate some death metal bands, I think I'm too old for five death metal bands in a row... (laughs)

But it's a good question, cause it's definitely something I feel. It's like, "oh, man we're not heavy enough for that…".

"The Cockroach King" is our signature song almost, even though that's really the only song we have that's like that

Back to the show. Let's say that some people will want to check out and listen to Haken for the first time before coming to the show and see you playing live. So, they want to check what Haken is about. Maybe most people would go with the most famous or played tracks on Spotify and give a listen to them. But, if you had to choose the best five songs for someone who wants to check out Haken for the first time, which ones would you choose and why?

Probably, "The Cockroach King" has got to be in there, because that's our signature song almost, even though that's really the only song we have that's like that. But it's kind of unique and catchy. It's got a catchy chorus and it's got some really cool riffs… heavy riffs in it…

Then I would probably say... Five, you say… this is this is going to be hard.

Whenever we do play to crowds that don't know us on festivals, when we play "Prosthetic" you can see the energy in the crowd kind of elevates

Let’s make it three if it’s difficult…

Alright then! "Puzzle Box" comes to mind again, because that's sort of heavy-ish and it's more straight ahead…

Another one would be "Prosthetic". That's a good one. Like whenever we do play to crowds that don't know us on festivals, when we play that one you can kind of see the energy in the crowd kind of elevates…

I can understand why.

So that that would be a good one. And then "The Architect". It's fun because that's very technical and we’re leaning into our love for bands like Between The Buried And Me kind of music…

And then I would say finally "Visions"!

I have a perfect idea. You come out, you play "The Architect", "Crystallized" and "Visions". Then you're gone and no one understands what hit them!

(laughs)! I don't even know how long our set is gonna be, so…

I imagine it would be around 70 minutes. That's my guess.

Really? It's longer than I imagined, actually…

Not less than 60 or more than 70, I’d say. Really, did you have any feedback from Greek fans since the announcement of your of live show here? Because, I was surprised to see that there are many Haken enthusiasts. I’ve followed the band for many years, I’ve conducted a few interviews and stuff but I was never even sure if there’s a following to be honest. And all of the sudden, I get the feedback that you may even return for a headline club show. Did you have any feedback of that kind yourselves?

Yeah... I mean only like posts that people are happy that we're coming there. But we've certainly had many Greek fans traveling to see us in the past, either in London or wherever's nearby in Europe. Because for some reason, we’ve never been able to get to Greece. So, over the years, many of them have travelled to see us. That's really nice, but we can't wait to come there and see them and meet them in person and on their on their home territory.

You have some time off before you come here for the first time, because it's going to be the first show since early May, so it seems like a one off show…

Yeah!

Will you also have some days off after to take advantage of the situation and have some days off here after the show as well?

I think one or two of us maybe… I guess like a few of us will be just going to play the show and come home, but there might be one or two staying. I'm not sure. Yeah, it's a good opportunity.

Not only is it Greece, but we get to share the stage with Mastodon and Dream Theater! It sounds like the best day ever

I’d say don't miss it. Really, how did you react when they told you that there's an opportunity for one off show in Greece? Because that's how it seems…

"Yeah, let's do it. Absolutely!". Not only is it Greece, but we get to share the stage with Mastodon and Dream Theater! It sounds like the best day ever, yeah.

We’re working on the new album every day. We've been meeting up and going through ideas

Yeah, that's great too! Now, you told me about a couple months ago that you had started working on ideas for the new Haken album. Since some time has passed have you made any significant progress on that? What’s the status? Have you started exchanging ideas and stuff?

Yeah! That's what we’re working on every day. We've been meeting up and going through ideas. And then there's a lot of work that goes on individually, kind of developing ideas. It's just an ongoing process. It takes time. But I don't know about significant progress… I don't know what to say about that…

I mean, if you have you some songs that are ready, or a basic idea for the album or things like that…

Yeah! We have a whole kind of structure of an album in place, but we’re going through it with a fine tooth comb to really make each section count. It takes a long time to really mold and develop the songs.

And then, you have so much detail in your songs, themes coming back and forth, double meanings in the lyrics and all that stuff. If someone like me takes notice of that stuff and cares about these things in music, then he appreciates them a lot…

Yeah, exactly. Especially lyrics. You know, it's not something you can just rush or dash out in a day or something. Lyrics for me… it takes me a few weeks. I always do it like I sing my own version of it as a demo thing and listen to that back when I go on walks.

And it's kind of funny, like when you're at the computer and you’re in a sort of creative mode, then you think something is good or you're happy with how it's going and you think "Oh man, this is it. Finally I've nailed it!". And then, later on, you step outside, go for a walk and then something happens, like your mindset changes more to a listener's mindset. And then you can listen to it more like a fan of the band. And it's oftentimes you hear things you did and which you thought was perfect like two hours ago, and you hear it back as a listener and you think "Man, that sucks! I have to go back and redo that!"…. (laughs)

You have to keep doing that over and over until finally you go for a walk and listen to it and you wouldn't want to change it...(laughs) It's a kind of funny process…

It probably won't sound anything like "Fauna"

Will it be easy or difficult for you to make a follow up to "Fauna"? Personally, I have "Fauna" very up high. I'm not sure which is your best album, but it’s this one along with "The Mountain" or "Virus". I don't know… Every single one is great… Anyway, it was a great album and I think it was very well received. So, will it be more difficult or easier to make a follow up for an album like this one? Does it add extra pressure to you or you don't have it in mind?

I think what happens with most bands is after doing an album like the last one, you almost don't want to do that again so soon. You almost like to go the other way and go to a different extreme and not do anything that sounds like what you just did. You try and invent a new sound for the band or something like that. So, it probably won't sound anything like "Fauna". The mindset is totally different as well. I think we're trying more to streamline the songs, so they're shorter and more well-crafted songs rather than things like "Elephants Never Forget"... That was the mindset of more like writing a musical. That was supposed to be a little mini musical where nothing really repeats. It’s like a little short play almost. There's not really any thought of doing anything like that, this time. It's more like "Let's try and do shorter songs that are more self-contained. It’s just a different inspiration, you want to grab hold of, I guess...

I really can’t wait! Because as time passes by, when I revisit your older albums, although I already love them, I still find them intriguing, interesting and challenging in a good way. And I love them even more for the details that maybe I didn't notice in the first place. So I'm really looking forward to the new one...

Yeah, me too. You know, we are as well like that, because it's like we kind of discover the album along the way as well… (laughs). When you when we start, we don't even know what it's going to be like…

That's really nice. Back to some questions regarding the upcoming show here... Here's a terrible idea I had. You go find Mike Portnoy and play with The Shattered Fortress again…

(laughs)

My hope is that on a future tour Dream Theater will do the "12 steps" as it was supposed to be, with the real guys

Go and tell him that only Eric is not here now, so let’s play again with The Shattered Fortress. Jokes aside, how was this experience for you and how did it happen?

It was the coolest. Luckily, he's got the real band now to do this. My hope is that they’ll do that on a future tour… Do the "12 steps" as it was supposed to be, with the real guys,… I wanna see that!. Obviously!

The way it started out… it was really supposed to be just a one off thing on the cruise. Mike had this idea cause it was his 50th birthday and he wanted to do different sets on the cruise, all linked to different parts of his career and whatnot. So he asked to help him out and do the do the 12 steps with him on the top stage kind of thing. At first I was like "Oh man, can I even do that?". I was like "Oh shit", because it's hard, right?. I think a couple of the other guys said yes already so then I of course I had to kind of do it… (laughs)

Then I had to figure out how amI going to learn all these Petrucci riffs. It took like 6 months or something actually to learn it and practice it, get it up to speed. And obviously Petrucci's the best ever! Even though he makes it seem so easy, it's not!

There’s only one Petrucci out there….

Oh yeah! Petrucci’s the man…

John Petrucci has always been like a teacher for me

For me too…

I always looked up to him. Because as a student of the guitar, I was at guitar school in the early 90s and whatnot, when "Images And Words" and "Awake" came out. That was what I aspired to, trying to be like… it was the first time there was a band that had this had the kind of Metallica riffing that I loved, but also that he had this technique of like Steve Vai, like Al Demola and Steve Morse. And all wrapped up in this amazing, really deep songwriting. It was like "Images And Words" was this perfect combination of everything that you would want to be as a guitar student. So I did feel like that…

And then reading interviews with them, you sort of found out that they were at Berkeley!".So, it was like you kind of saw them almost as like teachers. Especially, they did clinics and magazines. You know… Guitar Magazine or Guitar World had Petrucci lessons. So, he was like a teacher.

Performing their music with Mike really did feel like a kind of final exam…

And video cassettes I think. Back in the 90s there were video cassettes…

Yeah… The Rock Discipline! Everyone agrees that's the best instructional video. I had that feeling of like learning from them for many years. And then performing their music with Mike really did feel like a kind of final exam… (laughs)

You passed it with flying colors. From the videos I’ve seen, you were great. So it's good it happened.

It was an absolute honor to do it. Incredible. It's the same as if Ringo Starr said "do you want to go and jam some Beatles songs?". It was that cool.

I get it. My last question is – since we talked about John Petrucci, who' my number one favorite guitarist of all time - then maybe my second favorite is a guy that for many years has not been with us. And I'm gonna ask you because I've seen some videos and I know that you love Savatage and Criss Oliva...

Oh yeah!

Like Tony Iommi, like Led Zeppelin, like all these bands. Like Metallica. And Savatage have that as well... You just hear these riffs, and he's like "Oh my God!

Also they play in a couple of days here in Greece, after 23 years. So, what I wanted you to tell me about them… What's your favorite Savatage albums? And if you agree with me that Criss Oliva belongs to the greatest metal guitarists of all time?

He absolutely does! Yeah, man like. His riffing is so great… I mean, I love learning riffs because riffs to me are like nuggets of gold or diamonds.

You know when you hear like a riff and it sounds like it's always existed. Like Tony Iommi, like Led Zeppelin, like all these bands. Like Metallica. And Savatage have that as well... You just hear these riffs, and he's like "Oh my God!". It sounds obvious now he's played it, but it's like "How did he come up with that?".

I think I would say "Streets" is my favorite album. Because I love musicals as well and concept albums. "Operation: Mindcrime" was a big one for me. And "Streets" is like in between "Operation: Mindcrime" and "Jesus Christ Superstar" or something like that.

Yeah! There’s too much sentiment on this album. Some songs hit hard. They can bring you to tears if you resonate with them, I think…

Yeah, I mean, it's brilliant. The lyrics, the songs, the riffs, the solos… They just played in London, but I couldn't make it. Hopefully, I’ll have the chance, now they're back.

Yeah, they'll be back and they’ll have Jon with them, so that will be even greater. Alright then next station Athens, Greece. Hope to see you there Charlie… I’m sure it will be great. I think we’re ready to welcome Haken here with arms wide open…

Thank you, man. I'll be in the crowd watching Mastodon and Dream Theater!

You’ll let me buy you a beer for the songs you’ve written!

(laughs)

Or two!

See you there!