Cradle Of Filth: "Black metal is not supposed to be woke"

One thing that’s certain is that a conversation with Dani Filth is not gonna be dull, as he proved once again with the interview that you’re about to read below.

As another lengthy European tour is about to begin in a few days, we had the chance to talk with him about all things regarding Cradle Of Filth past and he didn’t let us down. From what we should expect from their upcoming shows and how different it is performing in a club show in comparison to a big festival up to the current status of the band’s forthcoming album, its musical direction and Ed Sheeran’s appearance on it. We also had the chance to dive deep in the past and talk about the first days of the band, as 2024 marks 30 years since the release of their debut album and why some fans piss him off and should be nowhere near the black metal scene. And we talked about the ongoing decline of the music business and how 80s metal is superior to most of the music that’s coming out nowadays among many more interesting topics.

And as always Dani had some bold statements and strong opinions to share with us, so enjoy!

You’re embarking on a quite lengthy European Tour in a few days with Cradle Of Filth. How come you wanted to tour while you are still in the making of the new album?

Well, we felt like we hadn't reached all our objectives. We hadn't played everywhere that we needed to for "Existence Is Futile" and an opportunity came up with our new booking agent to undertake this tour. He laid out a load of dates, he had some good ideas to support it and asked us to do it. So I just decided that it's a good thing to do. It puts the final touches to the "Existence Is Futile" world tour. It's gone to places we haven't played before, so we can actually draw closure on that particular album. And it gives us a break from the studio. We don’t rush the album at all. It's gonna be coming out later this year, so we've got a deadline. We know what we're doing, so that's exactly what we've done.

All right. We'll come back to the album later on. Of course, it's great to have you back in Athens, Greece. In fact, it's your first club show since the 2018. And if you look at it, it's like a pattern, as you play a club show in Greece every five to seven years…

Well, we couldn't help with COVID, you know…

Yeah, yeah, of course.

That would be two years…

True. So, what should we really expect this time around from your club show?

Well, we'll be playing music from across the whole back catalogue of Cradle of Filth's albums, so we won't be centering on one. I mean, obviously, we've been playing stuff from "Existence Is Futile", I think like 3 songs, but we're paying attention to early albums, to later albums? To "Midian" era, to "Cruelty" era. We're just playing a fan favorite set I guess, you'd like to call it that.

There's not much else to say really. There’s going to be a fantastic visual show as they always are. We got some great bands supporting us as well. We are really looking forward to coming back to Greece. I love Athens. We had a great time there when we supported Judas Priest, a couple of years ago. We had days off in Athens and it was amazing. Strangely enough, that last we played in Athens, I stayed with my girlfriend. did a bit for a few days up the coast to the beach. Of course, coming to Greece were there’s warmer climate and that is a bonus. We’ve been playing Finland, Estonia, Latvia… so it’ll be nice, at least to get a bit of a good weather

I have one question regarding the setlist. Last time in 2018 you played the whole magnificent "Bathory Aria". Are there any chances that it will happen again?

"Bathory Aria"? I shouldn't think so. No, because we were touring "Cruelty" at that point, and the "Aria" is a really long song and it's really like two songs, I suppose. So, no... Like I said, we've got a mixture of stuff from across the whole back catalogue. And although we are playing, like I said, three songs form "Existence Is Futile", you'd expect that, as that was an album that we haven't actually toured in Greece with. I mean, you can't really count the festival we played, because again it's a festival setlist and that dictates it. And you play lots of different material. But it was a great show. I loved that show. It was one of my favorites that yeae

And I was thinking that you've played twice in Greece, in festivals. One back in 2001 and one in 2022, and both lineups contained Judas Priest. What a coincidence.

Yeah, I know! But with different singers!

Yeah, that’s true! So, regarding your performance and your show, what do you prefer: a club show or a festival slot?

That's hard to say. That's hard to answer really, because I love playing shows regardless. I do like small shows in clubs. I mean like smaller shows, but the only thing I do not like is the fact that it's very difficult to hear sometimes in very, very small clubs. Especially for my range, if there's not enough space in the room, I find it difficult to attenuate my higher screams. Obviously, I love playing big festivals because you're playing to more people and there's more camaraderie meeting other bands etc. But, advantageously smaller shows means you're headlining. It's more of a devout congregation, you're playing more to the people that have come expressly just to see you as the headline band. So I wouldn't favour one above the other. They're both very different creatures. And I love playing them both. We have a great time either way, and we always put on a show that's suitable to the environment. So I mean, if it's a massive show, then we'll put on a massive show. It's a small club show, we'll adjust it accordingly and make it as good as possible. But yeah, I think my favorite shows, if you really did have to press me, are club shows at about 1500 to 2000, that sort of size. I don't know why... I just tried to come up with an answer.

Maybe it just clicks better for the music you play. Also, I was thinking that sometimes lineups of festivals can be tricky. Cause we have the experience – as I was there at both your festival appearances - back in 2001, the billing of Rockwave Festival was along with Judas Priest, Megadeth, Savatage and Rotting Christ, and it must have been a tough one for you. Cause a lot of traditional metalheads were attending and they were throwing stuff on stage while you were playing. Do you remember that?

I think that was because I made a comment about the England versus Greek football match.

Do you think so?

It didn’t have anything to do with metal… (laughs)

I know festivals they have to cater for all kinds of metal genres. I find them interesting

Well, you’re probably right…

I don't mind. I really don't mind. I'm a big fan of traditional metal myself and we played some really strange festivals. In fact, one of the best festivals we played, we stuck out like an absolute sore fun because it was again Judas Priest headlining, but it was also Whitesnake, Europe, Duff Mckagan's Loaded and us. It was a really strange feel… And really good! I mean, we were the only metal band and the rest were really just hard rock legends. And that was in Italy. But that was a fantastic show. It was one of my favorites. Maybe because we were so different that people appreciated us, but it also enabled us to sit back and watch the couple of bands that followed us. So yeah, it doesn't really bother me...

And I know festivals they have to cater for all kinds of metal genres. I find them interesting. Sometimes we play festivals where I don't know anybody on the bill and I find that a bit frustrating. Especially when you look at the next day and you go "Oh shit. it’s got all these bands I wanna see tomorrow and today there's no one". But then again… for example last year we did a load of shows with King Diamond… well Mercyful Fate played. Not this year, the year before… and we never got to see them, because we were always playing at the same time on a different stage… (laughs)

Bummer!

I know, right? Total bummer!

There's so much dreadful music out there nowadays that I think everybody's appreciating what came out in the 80s much more

But, anyway, as we saw in 2022 in your Release Festival appearance about two years ago, things have changed. You were more than welcome and people really enjoyed your show. And all this diversity between metal genres, I think by now people are more kind of educated and expecting to see that different sides of metal.

To be honest, there's so much dreadful music out there nowadays that I think everybody's appreciating what came out in the 80s, all that, much more. I wasn't a big fan of bands like Def Leppard and Alice Cooper. I mean, I like them, but I was into thrash metal in the 80s. You know, the faster, the heavier, the better. But now, I'm totally going back and buying up loads and loads of traditional rock albums. I mean, I was a fan, but not a massive fan. And now, I’m a massive fan! But, frankly, it was about far better music than some of the shit that's out there now, in my opinion.

A few months ago, last year, in April 2023, you released "Trouble And Their Double Lives", which a live album. What was the idea of releasing a live album but not accompany it with a DVD or Blu-ray? Is a DVD release irrelevant because of streaming services, YouTube etc nowadays?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, we did two films, live streams, big production live streams. And they may be released to DVD or whatever at some point. But we felt that it wasn't fair to the people that had paid money during the pandemic to watch those, for them then to be released to the general public. So eventually they may be. And they were really great. They were amazing. But you're right. We were in the process of writing a new album and we were co-headlining with DevilDriver in the States. It was a very busy year for us, last year. I think that the amount of time and money and heartache filming a live show with all its camaraderie and releasing it to a market that's not really that appreciative of it… I mean, it just goes straight to YouTube and people don't play Blu-rays and DVD's anymore. So the record company made a decision to just release it like this and we can always release extra stuff in the future. But no, we just saw it as a standalone live record. And also those songs were all taken from different gigs in different countries all during the "Cryptoriana" world tour. So, we didn't have one specific date or two dates to film.

The new album has a track with Ed Sheeran on it and obviously the record company wants to make sure that comes out without any problems

OK. It makes sense. If I'm not mistaken, this live release was also your first release since you joined Napalm Records. So how does this this collaboration seem to work for you so far?

Well, it seems to be going well. Obviously, we haven't delivered our new album yet, but everybody's understanding that we are in no rush to release the new record. I mean, it's not recorded. I'm currently halfway through the vocals. We had some things that got in the way when we started the album back in August, but then we take the customary two weeks band holiday for the members who have children. Then I went away for 10 weeks. I was recording in LA for a bit and then Cradle Of Filth went to South America. Well, Mexico and a few days in South America, and then did a month co-headlining the second part of the Devildriver tour. Then it was about another week and a half. I went into the studio early December for a couple of weeks to fathom and put the album in a good place and maybe attenuate and amend some of the songs. But, then the producer had his girlfriend had a baby, so then we took two weeks off. Then it was Christmas… Then the second week in January, which was only literally 2 1/2 weeks ago, we came back and started singing, so I'm about halfway through. Everything else is done aside. We've got a bit of choir to put on, some more keyboard tracks, female vocals and the rest of me, and then a mix. It's due to be delivered at the end of May, so hopefully it’s an end of the year release. But the album has a track with Ed Sheeran on it and obviously the record company wants to make sure that comes out without any problems. It's a very expected record and so we're not going to rush it for anybody. I mean we can't, cause we’re on tour…

That's right…

I mean, people moan about this. People moan all the time. They say "Why aren't you touring here? Why aren't you touring there?, Why aren't you making a new album?". So we've been trying to do both. Obviously you can't please everybody, all of the time.

It's not us that bent down to Ed Sheeran, but he reached up to us

Yeah, that's true. Regarding the musical direction, I read an interview you gave to Decibel magazine, that the new album will have a "Dusk And Her Embrace" vibe. Could you elaborate on that a bit?

It has. I wouldn't go expecting a second "Dusk And Her Embrace". It has the vibe. There are some very vibe-ish songs that, in my mind, have the atmosphere of "Dusk And Her Embrace". Vocally it's not going to be the same. That was a very dark, a very traditional black metal album. Obviously it sounds… it’s got everything you'd expect from a Cradle Of Filth album. But don't go expecting a mirror image of that record, because that record was done way back, in 1996. A long while ago… soon to be 30 years… give it a couple of years, it’s 30 years old.

But it's great. I think it's definitely amongst the best material we've ever written. It's a little experimental in a few places, but not experimental in the way people think, as in like there’s not jazz odyssey or throw any reggae bits or anything. I know the song with Ed Sheeran surprises people, but they're only surprised cause they haven’t heard it. When they hear it, it'll make perfect sense. And they'll be surprised to know that it's not us that bent down to Ed Sheeran, but he reached up to us. Some of his vocals are really stretching the limit of his ability, as in like he's really going for it on some bit. So it's a great song. It's a great collaboration, but not for anybody to fear that this is something that it's gonna change Cradle. Because our fans realize I've always done strange collaborations. Because, what's the point of me singing on the Deicide record or a Dimmu Borgir album? It's just going to be more of the same. Obviously, I’ve done Bring Me The Horizon and Twiztid and Motionless In White… You know, strange collaborations that I think are good marriage, as in like opposites attract.

Yeah… It makes it more spicy, more interesting and unexpected.

Yeah, exactly! I mean, that's the whole purpose of some of these collaborations. It’s to push the envelope a little bit and do something that's different.

I don't subscribe to Spotify, because I don't believe in what they're doing. It's just taking money out of the musicians’ mouths

All right, now I was thinking that with you joining Napalm Records, with Cradle Of Filth you've been on major labels like Sony and you've been to real big metal labels like Roadrunner, Nuclear Blast and now Napalm and you've been to smaller maybe, but really important labels in the history of metal music like Music For Nations or Peaceville. So one could say that you've seen it all regarding the faces of industry in metal music. How much has this made you wiser and how much have things have changed over the years?

Well, I don't know about being wiser. Business decision maybe. The music industry has definitely changed over the years. There's definitely a lot less opportunity. There's always opportunity, but there's less emphasis on... I mean, for example, back in the day, we used to be able to go on press trips around the world. Nowadays they don't bother. It's all done over the internet. Sometimes you get European press trips, but it's very rarely that they’ll fly you to America anymore, just because of the costs doesn't equal it. There's been a lot of magazines that have shut down because the printed pages doesn't sell as much as one on the Internet, of course. Everybody expects everything on the Internet to be free, so nobody's paying for subscriptions.

So, basically, I saw the turn of events happen around 2007. And then slowly get worse, really. a lot of labels and a lot of residential studio, where most residential studios were the ones where you stay at, have shut. A lot of other studios have shut - you know, big studios - due to the impact of doing recordings from their bedrooms. And quite frankly, there's so much out there and you just go "Why do people bother?". Just because…

I mean, I've got a setup, I've just bought a set up microphone, like the whole recording facility, really. And I don't profess that I would begin to mix Cradle Of Filth albums, even though I've been present at every single one. I'm doing my parts and then sending them to the producer and we skip some bits in because I find it sometimes easier for me to work from home late at night. But I would never attempt to try and muscle in and say "hey, you know, I've got all this equipment, so I know what I'm doing". I don't… (laughs) I know vaguely. My job is a singer. Record industry people, that's their job. Producers of albums, that's their job.

So, what I'm basically saying is I've seen a decline in the whole musical world, really. From CD sales and album sales declining, through to record companies closing. Everything being put online. Basically the money isn't in it as it was, so a lot of people are struggling. And I find that when people struggle in the scene, there are going to be corners cut. So I don't think there's going to be as many great sounding big produced records as they once were. I've noticed it… it's just one of those things…

Obviously the streaming services as well have taken massively away from music sales. I mean I'm a CD collector. I mean, I buy CD's, I don't buy them like chunks of them, but since I hear an album, even if I get it on YouTube, I listen to it. My friend will recommend me, I check with some on YouTube and go "yes, I'll order the album". I don't subscribe to Spotify, because I don't believe in what they're doing. It's just taking money out of the musicians’ mouths. I know people say "Oh, it's such a good platform to get your band known". It's like, "fuck that". They wouldn't know a single on SoundCloud and then they can buy at a reduced rate. Or even they can buy stuff or whatever they want. If they want it to be a penny, if they want it to be ten pounds, eight euros or whatever… just give people the option. With these streaming services, they're not paying the musicians anything. And yesterday - I believe it was yesterday - Universal took their music off TikTok, because that violated certain musical rights. Now you've got the danger of AI. It's not looking good for musicians, so yeah, it's an endemic. It's an existential crisis, I think facing the music industry. And so one thing they can't take away from us - but they're trying – is touring in a live arena. Hence why Cradle Of Filth have been touring more so than usual, trying to get out to reach all of our fans before the inevitable.

Yeah, let's hope things reverse in the near future somehow.

Well, hopefully somehow… I can't see it happening, but we'll see…

Now "Cruelty And The Beast" was remixed and re-released and also the first lost edition of "Dusk And Her Embrace" was also released. So, since it's been 30 years since the "Principle Of Evil Made Flesh" this years, do you have any plans on reissuing that or maybe play some anniversary shows?

Yeah, there are some plans. I can't really talk about them at the moment. We have re-recorded and we don't know when we're releasing this, cause this has nothing to do with the record. But we re-recorded "To Eve The Art Of Witchcraft" and "Of Mist And Midnight Skies" as well as well as a bunch of other stuff that we've done, that's in the periphery of the album.

We didn't burn churches, which is a good thing… because I thought the whole thing was a little stupid...

I've been talking with some friends, but also recently with Ihsahn from Emperor, about 1994 and how it’s considered maybe the most important year for the black metal genre. But, you know, I was thinking that people usually focus on the Norwegian bands and the things that took place in the scene over there. And maybe they overlook the fact that your debut album also came out in the same year and had quite an impact, at least in my opinion. So for you, was it an advantage or a disadvantage being in a British band and playing black metal in the mid-90s, while the Norwegian scene was on the spotlight? How did you view things back then?

Well, I thought it was advantageous. I mean, we had lots of friends in the Scandinavian scene. We had Dissection support us lots of times. We supported Emperor, we were friends with bands like Immortal and Gorgoroth, we toured with them, they supported us several times as well. In Flames supported us. It was a good time. Being British… bear in mind that heavy metal and black metal was invented in England. So, I found that we were just carrying the torch and I don't think was derogatory. I don't think it was a problem being from England. In fact, I think quite the contrary. It sets us apart from our other musical peers, because it lends us a sense of individuality.

Ok, so we didn't burn churches, which is a good thing… because I thought the whole thing was a little stupid… Important because it acknowledged the strength that music as a spell can cast over people and woke people up too in the notoriety of this particular scene, which always makes me laugh now. We're a black metal band essentially. Yeah, and people say "Oh well, no, you're not really". It's like "Well, read what I just wrote about where we came from and who we played with" and I think people can say "Yes, OK".

Black metal is not supposed to be woke

Black metal is not supposed to be woke. You get all these woke on my site "Oh no, no, no, no, no! You can't do that. You can't say that. Oh, why did you post that? Oh my God!". It's like "We're a fucking black metal band. What do you think?". You know you can't dictate... If you're a woke specialist and you're bemoaning the nature of black metal, then you've missed the point entirely. You don't deserve to be anywhere near the scene.

But, going back to the question, I do think we were in a good position. Because we weren't poking our heads above the crowd of other musical peers. In England, it was really just us. There were a few other bands, but they were kind of more underground, whereas the Norwegian scene at that point already had tons of bands. There’s no point naming them all. I think we're lucky in that respect. I don't think it was a burden at all.

You've been an active musician for 30 years and your only musical outlet was always Cradle Of Filth, apart from The Devilment. Of course, you've made a lot of guest appearances that we've mentioned before, but what I wanted to ask you… First of all, if The Devilment are still active and if you're planning to release a third album. And secondly, how come you never wanted to go maybe on a solo album or launce a solo career? It’s something that mostly everyone has more or less has done in rock and metal music, with a career like yours.

Well, I've been involved with Temple Of The Black Moon and that album is still work in progress. But Cradle Of Filth has just been such a big part of my life. And we've been very busy. We've been very prolific, 13 albums, two live albums, EPs, videos. You name it… Books. I've got an autobiography coming out next year and hopefully/eventually my poetry book, which not that it's taking this long. It's just that I couldn't be bothered to release it, because there's always something else that Cradle are doing.

Devilment happened during a bit of a lull in the band's career, and no… it's on a permanent hiatus, really. I don't have the time to waste on Devilment anymore. It was great fun, I love both the records we did, but our drummer is the drummer of Machine Head now. Our keyboardist left and now she's actually the girlfriend of our producer and they just had a baby together, so she's not touring anymore. So, I think it's pointless to carry on Devilment. You know, we might do some festivals, but it's just not worth my time. I've got too much in my life going on to do things that I just don't think are gonna be enough. I mean, that's just a vanity project, really. And with the new Cradle Of Filth coming out under new management and getting bigger all the time, with better ideas and lots of touring commitments and the other things I mentioned earlier, it's just too busy, really. I'm going on a personal life as well…

If I'm not mistaken, Cradle Of Fear, the film that you've made has been acquired by Netflix, is that right?

Oh yeah, that was like two years ago…

I reckon in the first two years our debut album probably sold like 15.000 copies and I'm sure I've heard more than 15.000 people tell me how they bought it at the day of release

So, do you have any plans on releasing something new or sequel to that? Or something like that?

No… I mean, I would like to… it was always the chance, but it's like a lot of things. It's like when "Principle Of Evil Made Flesh" came out. Everybody goes: "Oh yes, I remember when it came out, I bought it on the day it was released". You hear so many people say that. And I just call bullshit on it, because at the time that album took a long time to get recognized. It’ the same with anything. And it’s the same Cradle Of Fear. We were a big band at the time. You know, really big. But, that means nothing in the movie world. It did well. It was the biggest - at the time - underground movie. It got in the Guinness book records for Britain. Since then, it’s been surpassed by other releases. And only over the last 10-15 years people have started recognizing it. Like "Did you see that movie? Oh yeah, I remember it from my youth! Oh, my God I wish they’d done a second part" etc etc. It's what you call one of those slow burners, like an infamous movie that gathers pace with time, much like a debut album does. It may be legendary now, but it took two years before it really got to. I reckon in the first two years it probably sold like 15.000 copies and I'm sure I've heard more than 15.000 people tell me how they bought it at the day of release, which makes me laugh… (laughs) Yeah, and the same principle there literally.

Everybody wants to show off a little bit, even if they’re not completely honest...

Yeah…

That’s it from me. I don't waste anymore of your time.

Well, you haven't wasted any of my time. It's been great.

Hope you enjoyed it as well!

Yes, Sir.

So, thank you very much and looking forward to see you soon in Greece.

Thank you very much. Looking forward to coming.