Tiktaalika: "Players back then seemed to be way more creative and unique. Every band had their own sound"

It was almost expected that the planned conversation with Haken guitarist Charlie Griffiths would move in an almost fanboy way around the heavy metal of another era, which we both grew up with and for which we have a special place in our musical preferences...

Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Sepultura, Pantera, Kind Diamond and a number of similar names that were prominent in the late 80's and early 90's are honored on Charlie's second solo album "Gods Of Pangaea", which is released under the (old school) Tiktaalika logo. A logo which - like the whole artwork - refers to the works of Ed Repka...

The excellent "Gods Of Pangaea" album plays non-stop and Charlie and I discuss the influences of each track, the inspiration he still draws from the music he grew up with, the uniqueness of Cliff Burton and (of course) the new Dream Theater album, among many other things. In a conversation that proves that in addition to being a great musician, Charlie is a true fan of heavy metal music and perhaps the combination of the two is what makes his new album so enjoyable.

I'm really happy to have the chance to talk with you first of all, because I'm a big Haken fan. Then, also, because I've loved the new Tiktaalika album SO much, that I desperately wanted to talk to you about it.

I'm happy to talk about it!

In fact, it’s not the first time chat. We conducted an interview about 10 years ago when "The Mountain" was about to be released. It's been a long time since then. In the meantime I’ve talked with other members of Haken with Ross, with Rich, and with Peter lately. And, here we are again full circle.

Nice to nice to speak to you, man!

We're working on the next album in between. We're always working on stuff with Haken

So, before we get to dive into "The Gods Of Pangaea", I want to congratulate you for "Fauna" because not only because I consider it to be your finest work Haken, but also I consider it to be one of the masterpieces of the current prog metal scene. How do you feel about this album, now it’s been a couple of years since its release and you've toured extensively about it?

It still feels pretty fresh to be honest. We're still touring on that. Next month we've got our final little stint in South America, playing at Bangers Open Air Festival in Sao Paulo, and then a few dates around that. And that’s going to be the final "Fauna" era. We're working on the next album in between. We're always working on stuff. It's like after these dates, we'll have to focus on the new album…

But, "Fauna" still feels like our current piece of work. I'm really proud of it. And we've got a live release coming up as well, where we perform the entire album and we filmed it at the Forum, in Kentish Town in London. It's a bit of a legendary venue, so it'll be kind of cool to put the final bow on the "Fauna" album with that live presentation.

I’ve grown up loving live DVDs like that and I can't wait to see "Fauna" in its full in this live DVD. You know, I've been trying to find a date to travel abroad to see you on this fantastic set, but I couldn't manage to find one. But the normal would be for Haken to come to Greece… You haven’t been here...

We’ve never been there man... It's a crime!

Yeah, I agree. I'm a victim here, you know… (laughs)

Yeah, you are. Well, me too! (laughs)

I've actually never been to Greece, like even on holiday or anything like that. So, it's somewhere I definitely am looking forward to go… With all this history and things like that…

Even if you don't come with Haken, I suggest you book a trip in the summer and visit the islands. I mean, apart from that there are plenty of things that you may like… sightseeing and stuff. But, you must be able to handle the heat, because during the summer we do have a lot of heat here in comparison to England

I’m good! I like the heat!

All right. Now, allow me to make connection between "Fauna" and "Gods Of Pangaea", because we have animals on one hand and dinosaurs on the other hand. So, how much has the whole "Fauna" concept musically, lyrically and stylistically affected "Gods Of Pangaea"? When did you start working on this specific album?

"Gods Of Pangaea"… I started working on after "Fauna" was done. So yeah, I mean there is a kind of similar… I mean, dinosaurs were animals, right? (laughs)

But I guess the way I was thinking about it was that "Pangaea" deals more with the planet itself. The interlocking continents… how they were all one supercontinent, and now with the Earth in its current form we're just at its current stage of its evolution over time kind of thing. I was thinking kind like that… more of the geology aspect.

It seemed logical to have my name on the first album, just so people would know what it was anyway

An obvious question is why did you decide to turn Tiktaalika into a project? It was the album title of your first solo album, and then it's turned into a band name. Does this mean that it could transform into a more proper project maybe?

I think so. I mean, it was just like ideas that evolve over time. It maybe would have made more sense just to call the first one Tiktaalika and not have my name on it. But, it just seemed logical to have my name on it, just so people would know what it was anyway.

But this time, with the whole artwork and packaging, I just loved this… I've got it the vinyl here, I'll show you… [editor: Charlie demonstrates the vinyl of the album]

Yeah, I can't wait to get it too!

Yeah. I mean, it's cool looking.

I thought that the logo looks so good and so old school that I just wanted that to be the focus

Yeah. Fantastic!

So, we were going for that old school, late 80s / early 90s style with the artwork where it's properly hand drawn, no Photoshop. No sort of photographic images anyway. Dan Goldsworthy, who did the "Fauna" artwork and my first Tiktaalika album did this one too. So, I asked him to make an old school metal logo. And that was, that's just what he did off the bat and he just nailed it. I thought that it looks so good and so old school that I just wanted that to be the focus. Putting my name on it just wouldn't look good though.

It's cool. I like this change...

Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, I know. Someday I would like to perform it as a band. It would be maybe simpler to have this as a name...

The record is one thing and then the live the different thing. I imagine it being like a stripped down, four-piece. You know: guitar, bass, drums and then like one singer taking care of all the songs

Maybe the multiple singers may be a bit of constraint maybe, but I think you you'll be able to adjust to the live environment...

Yeah, the way I think of it is like the record is one thing and then the live the different thing. I imagine it being like a stripped down, four-piece. You know: guitar, bass, drums and then like one singer taking care of all the songs, just doing them his own way.

I asked Conner "Could you take that Cliff Burton mentality and apply it to my songs that I'm doing?"

There are similarities with the first album because you have some vocalists that are the same, but an important change is that you have Conner with you this time around. Why did you think the music needed Conner's amazing skills and playing on this one? I guess you could have handled it on your own again…

Yeah, I could have done it myself. When I started it I was planning just to do it myself, just have the bass played by me. But it just came about because…

We're on tour with Haken and I saw Conner was working on transcribing something on his laptop. And I asked him about it…|And he what he was doing was transcribing "Master Of Puppets". Like the whole album kind of thing… Just as a kind of study to figure out what Cliff Burton was doing. Because, he’s a really interesting player… Cliff Burton's approach on the Metallica stuff is like you’d think he would just follow the guitar exactly. You know, like the "Master Of Puppets" riff is a specific thing on the guitar. Most metal guitar players learn that as one of their first riffs or whatever. But it's kind of surprising the way Cliff Burton added bass to it. He’s not playing exactly the same notes all the time. He's got a variation on the riff and he'll kind of weave in and out of it, which kind of adds a cool uniqueness. It's like a more organic sound kind of thing. And I asked Conner "Could you take that Cliff Burton mentality and apply it to my songs that I'm doing?". So, it would have more of a creative bass playing input away from my guitar player approach kind of thing. To go ahead and an organic quality to it…

Cool. He did a great job!

Yeah! And the other thing is I wanted to keep the bass clean. Like listening to "Rust In Peace", "Countdown To Extinction"… the Anthrax stuff or Pantera … You know the modern fashion is to have a really distorted bass. I’m into modern sound, but I wanted this to have it more old school approach.

Yeah, yeah. Nowadays, the guitars downtune so much sometimes, you can't really figure out what's happening on the bass...

That's true. Yeah, I mean, I love how Meshuggah, they kind of started that trend, having the guitar and bass like meshing together into one thing, which sounds incredible. But, for this stuff I wanted you to be able to hear the bass separately.

Players back then seemed to be way more creative and unique. Every band had their own sound

Yeah, I'm around 45 and I'm also fascinated by that old school approach. And I was thinking that this album musically sticks with me so much because some of its songs seem like a great tribute to a certain era of heavy metal music that seems to be one of my favorite. You know, I'm talking about late 80s, early 90s when bands that used to play really fast thrash metal started slowing down a little bit, adding melodies, being more technical and detailed to their playing. There are plenty of examples from Metallica and Megadeth to Annihitaro and Sepultura... So did I get it right?

100%. That was the era I was growing up in. I had cassettes… (laughs) like "Beneath The Remains" and all that stuff you mentioned already. That whole era was the soundtrack to my first years of playing guitar and what got me excited about wanting to learn the guitar. And I guess there is some nostalgia about it, about reconnecting with your own roots and your way into music that is powerful. And also I think players back then seemed to be way more creative and unique. Every band had their own sound. Like Andreas Kisser… I mean, he’s great even in the more modern Sepultura albums.

They have some amazing stuff…

He’s really creative and he's really underappreciated regarding what he brings to the metal guitar playing world. All those guys are still my inspiration, when I turn in to try and come up with something in that vein that they did.

Yeah, but you seem to do it great while many others sound just like copycats. You didn't do that on that album in my opinion. But, before we get to the guitar playing on the album I have a feeling that Daniel is trying to piss off of Dave Mustaine…

Daniel de Yongh? I’ve seen a couple of comments… You mean, sounding like him?

We all got nothing but massive respect for Dave Mustaine. He’s the pioneer

You know, MegaDave used to be get pissed off with much minor things in the past. If he listens to someone sounding so much like him and basically sounding better than him nowadays… Of course, I’m kiddin’…

OK, I can see! I didn't really think of that at the time it. I've seen a couple of comments on the YouTube video and I was like "Wow, Daniel sounds like Mustaine?". I didn't even mention Dave Mustaine. I didn't even think of it. I was thinking more of Hetfieldy approach... I don't really know what to think. I just present all the singers with my version. I'm trying to sing… (laughs) I mean, it sounds horrible, but you know… I try and just give the flavor there, what type of approach to take or whatever… But, we all got nothing but massive respect for Dave Mustaine. He’s the pioneer.

Don’t get me wrong. First of all, I love Megadeth. And I love these songs you’ve written. They’re great There's nothing like plagiarism or something like that. But they give me this feeling that, to be honest with you, I've kind of lost with Megadeth’s recent albums, though I still love them, you know. But, the title track and "Give Up The Ghost", yeah, they give me this feeling and they’re great…

Yeah! And "Tyrannicide" is definitely a tip of the hat to Megadeth, that intro. The guitar riffs are inspired by Dave's intricate riffing.

You know, I interviewed Dave last summer and we had a discussion about his musical approace. And with the exception of "Rust In Peace" - because it stands somewhere in between 80s and 90s - he said he prefers the 80s stuff than the 90s stuff. And it doesn't make any sense to me. If you put "Countdown To Extinction", what can be compared to that? OK, "Peace Sells" is great, but if you put also "Youthanasia" and "Cryptic Writing" I lean 100% to the 90s. And I think he's trying to play again with a more raw approach, like in the 80s sometimes, which is even more difficult to do if you're not like in your twenties…

Yeah. And obviously he was sick. You know, he got over having throat cancer and it's amazing that he's still doing it. I mean, I love "Countdown To Extinction". A lot of the stuff that can be found on the album is amazing it’s got super catchy songs, like the title track is amazing and "High Speed Dirt"…

I think of solos like a musical passage that leads from one part to the next. It's never about showing off technique

I think you have that Marty Friedman feeling, because with Marty can somehow sing the melody of his solos. Even though he was highly technical, the melody stands out. And I can hear it in you solos too, it’s the same feeling… the solos serves the songs and you put melody in them

Funny enough, solos are my least favorite part of the song to come up with. I like coming up with the riffs and the vocal lines, and the lyrics and fitting all that together. And then the solo, you have to have it as a kind of bridging section, sometimes the songs are calling out for that. It's always a bit "what do I do here kind of thing". It's always trying to think of a musical passage that leads from one part to the next. It's never about showing off technique.

Then again, the album is not just old school, because if you take for example "Forbidden Zone", there is a certain Gojira vibe in it. Have they have become part of your music vocabulary as time passes by? And how did this song came about with this Gojira vibe?

Yeah, "Forbidden Zone". I mean, yeah, that's like the one down tuned track. The whole album's in like E standard, the classic thrash tuning. But for "Forbidden Zone" I did drop D which is sludgier. And I guess, yeah it's definitely got that Gojira feeling on it. I love them. A heavy, simple groove and chugging guitars..

And then you can take the prog out of the boy, but not the boy out of the prog…

(laughs)

Andy La Roque is one of my favorite guitarists and I wanted to come up with something like he would do

And "Mesozoic Mantras" is the proof that there had to be a progy track, not only old school metal. And it's great.. It fits right. So you didn't try to avoid, your prog roots completely...

Yeah, that one. That one was more supposed to be like a King Diamond / Mercyful Fate song. There's a track on "Conspiracy" called "Sleepless Nights". It has that acoustic thing and I was going for that kind of thing … You know, I love Andy La Roque, he is one of my favorite guitarists and I wanted to come up with something like he would do. Those kind of Mercyful Fate riffs that come in the second-half of the song, where it's like kind of classic and the vocals are more dramatic and theatrical. You know, like King Diamond…

I really loved Roddy Walker's contribution to "Fault Lines". In fact, the first thing I thought when I heard this track is that maybe Roddy is the best singer Annihilator never had...

(laughs) Yeah!

Which may sound a bit of strange, because, Coburn Pharr the singer of "Never Neverland" just passed away yesterday…

I heard it and I’m really sorry about that…

Those first three Annihilator albums were huge for me

But then again, being a big fan, of both Annihilator and Protest The Hero I made the connection like "wow, this guy should sing on "Set The World On Fire"...

Yeah, those first three Annihilator albums were huge for me. "Alice In Hell", Never, Neverland" and "Set The World On Fire"... There's definitely a lot of Jeff Waters worship on "Fault Lines" for sure. Also, I was thinking that vocally I was hearing Joey belladonna…

Yeah, it also has some of that…

In my head that was what I was thinking… So, I thought of Rody is having that kind of Anthrax-y vibe. He delivered it amazingly.

It's almost easier to come up with complex stuff, because you can just do anything, there's no rules really...

Yeah, I think he should do some more straightforward stuff at some point because a lot of people cannot dig what Protest The Hero do. They get lost along the way, casue it’s too much going on. Not for me, but for many people…

Yeah, that's really what I was trying to do on this album! It's almost easier to come up with complex stuff, because you can just do anything, there's no rules really… It's almost easy to do, like writing proggy time changes. Because you can have a change and then automatically make something sound interesting. You’re messing with it, it doesn't repeat the same way, every bar and stuff like that…

When you're limited… that was really a lot of why I did it as well to challenge myself. I said "OK, I need to come up with riffs. Like guitar riffs that repeat and you don't get bored with it. All those albums that we love and that we grew up with, it was like they came up with a riff… Like "Enter Sandman"... (laughs) The whole song is built around that one riff in one way or another, and it doesn't get boring. But it's like getting those little nuggets of inspiration that are much rarer, much harder to come by. It’s just repeat, repeat, repeat and it maintains your interest. That's more challenging when I come up with something like that. And I managed to do it. This whole album is really rhythmically. It's 4/4 or 6/8. There's a couple of bars of seven on "Gods Of Pangaea". But I wanted to keep it straight so you can hit a casual music fan and he can just keep banging the head to it. He won’t have to have any musical training to follow it… (laughs)

You did it. I think you achieved that.

Thanks! That's the challenge I set for myself... (laughs)

That's what I listen to. I put Anthrax on and go for a walk. I put on "Vulgar Display Of Power" earlier today and just went for a walk

I don't think you it was too much challenging for you. It seems like it came out pretty naturally from what I can hear.

Yeah. Once I go into the flow of it, it did feel quite natural fun. You know, that's what I listen to. I put Anthrax on and go for a walk. I put on "Vulgar Display Of Power" earlier today and just went for a walk.

So getting to the last track - not the bonus track – I have a questions: is it Tommy Rogers or Thomas Giles singing on the track?

He’s both! (laughs)

I know! I’m just kidin’, because they had both his names on the press release. I think it was Tommy Rogers Giles. And I'm like "OK, I need to ask who of the two is singing on this song"…

(laughs) Well, you don't know who you're going to get.

Yeah, he did a great job…He was the proper ending… That chorus was the perfect ending for the album…

I came up first with that first. With "Lost Continent", I had that in my head the rhythm. I was hearing a kind of Sepultura thing [editor: Charlie sings the chorus like Max Cavalera] …I thought that would be a great ending to a section and I worked backwards and came up with that section first and then the rest of the song on there.

Dan Goldsworthy, who worked on with the artwork did it He's a huge fan. He's like a metal encyclopedia. He knows every band and he's a huge fan of it. And obviously he's well versed in the Ed Repka album covers

And what a great video by the way!

The cartoon, huh? Basically, Dan Goldsworthy, who worked on with the artwork did it He's a huge fan. He's like a metal encyclopedia. He knows every band and he's a huge fan of it. And obviously he's well versed in the Ed Repka album covers. The 80s Megadeth albums, "Rest In Peace", Death albums like "Spiritual Healing". That was how we initially bonded over our love for Ed Ripka, you know. And it was fun putting our preacher character in different situations. And obviously he drew everything and it was really funny.

Yes, fantastic.

Yeah, I will enjoy that.

So I read the lyrics and read about the concept and stuff and I was wondering if you've heard of the band The Ocean….

I've heard about them, but I've never really dug into their music. I think I’ve seen the album titles and some song titles.

Martin Walkyier from Skyclad and Sabbat is one of my favorite lyricists ever. Lots of word play and clever usage of double meanings

They're doing something really similar in the last three or four albums… You know the songs got double meanings and they talk about the Paleozoic period and stuff. But they do it in a let’s say more dark and sinister way, while you add some parts of humor here and there. And I enjoy that that kind of English humor that it's in there...

I really appreciate lyricists with humorous word play, like Jeff Waters comes to mind. Those Annihilator songs that are really funny stuff. And also, there’s a guy called Martin Walkyier from…

Skyclad…

Skyclad and Sabbat! He's like one of my favorite lyricists ever. Lots of word play and clever usage of double meanings. Yeah, I do have a lot of fun puzzling lyrics together like that. "Fault Lines" was funny because it was coming from a point of view that I was imagining the feeling if you've broken up with your girlfriend or something… It feels like the world's dropped out. So the lyrics you can like read it literally like there's an earthquake happening and you're sort of falling into the Earth or it's like a break up song… (laughs)

Double meaning, like you did with "Fauna"…

Exactly!

Now before we close, I was thinking that "God Of Pangaea" is my favorite album of 2025 so far…

Don't listen to anything else now. Just leave it there… (laughs)

Along with an album I guess you have heard too, the new Dream Theater album.

Oh yeah, man.

Since "Parasomnia" came out, I've put that album on and I haven't got bored of it. I really enjoy it

And I'd love your honest opinion about "Parasomnia"…

Oh man, I've been loving it. I mean it's like… you know my musical preferences. I don't really think about it too much. It's just what I want to put on when I want to go for a walk and listen to music. Since it came out, I've put that album on and I haven't got bored of it. I really enjoy it. There's a song on there, called "Dead Asleep". I really like that one. It's got that "Scenes From A Memory kind of style.

I really liked "The Astonishing" as well. I'm a huge fan of musicals. "Jesus Christ Superstar" and "Sweeney Todd" are my two favourites... So, I really appreciated the work that went into it. Like Petrucci wrote a Broadway musical, and that's hard to do, kind of thing… (laughs)

You've got to almost have musical theatre literacy, like knowing the structure, how "Les Miserables" is structured or how themes get developed from character to character. And if you’re not approaching "The Astonishing" with that in mind, you're not get anything out of it

It's not appreciated so much by the fans, but anyway…

I know… But, I'm sure there are people that like it. It's hard to… You've got to almost have that kind of musical theatre literacy, like knowing the structure. Like this is how "Les Miserables" is structured or like this is how like themes get developed from character to character. And if you’re not approaching it with that in mind, you're not get anything out of it. So I like that one.

Also, back to "Parasomnia", I like really liked "Midnight Messiah"…

That Metallica riff…

Yeah, that chorus was very cool. It sounds like "Metal Militia" or something like that… that's definitely, totally intentional on their part. But, partly why I'm such a huge fan of Dream Theater is because you've got Tama drums, which is Lars’ drums, and you got Petrucci playing the "Master Of Puppets" amp, the Boogie IIC+… Tama drums and Boogie amps, they just go together, right? Like Metallica. And Mike and John have that….

You can feel that sort of partnership between Portnoy and Petrucci. Yeah, they're meant to play together

Last time I talked with Mike Portnoy a few months before his return to Dream Theater he said him and John are like James and Lars. Those were his exact words...

I totally get it. And that's a lot of the reason I appreciate Dream Theater so much. It’s like you can feel that, that sort of partnership. Yeah, they're meant to play together.